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Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does not m... - 5/10/2012 8:00:20 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I have a couple of threads that I plan to start, about some of the issues concerning illegal immigration in the United States.

This particular thread is about one of my pet peeves.

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?

You actually have many immigrants, including some Hispanics that are here legally that see the problems that unbridled illegal immigration is causing in this country.

I have nothing against Hispanics, and I am still slowly learning Spanish.
I enjoy interacting with people of all ethnicities.

Of course, there ARE people that are racist that dislike/or even hate illegal immigrants and maybe all immigrants.
But it is wrong/and ignorant to throw that in someone's face because they don't support amnesty programs 100%, or voice concerns about issues regarding illegal immigration.

Why are so many so quick, to paint everyone with the same damn brush all the time?

Just because you happen to believe that any and every person that manages to walk, crawl or dig their way into this country should NOT be rewarded with automatic citizenship, does NOT make you a bigot or racist.

I am a person of color, and if everyone coming across the border looked just like me, I still would not feel that everyone should be given amnesty/citizenship/ or be allowed to stay in this country.

I do believe that some people should be given amnesty, but I think it has to do be done on a case by case basis, and not given to everyone.

I also feel that the US customs and border protection agency should be expanded, and getting our borders secured should be a priority.

It seems like we are waiting for some horrible national tragedy to occur, and than securing our borders will become numero uno.

There are a myriad of issues facing the United States, concerning people and children that are in this country illegally.

This OP was started to defend those of us, that are not racist and are also not happy about unbridled illegal immigration and the ramifications that are facing the United States.

I am not a racist, a bigot, and hardly anti-Hispanic, and I am entitled to believe that our country can not take in, nor support 500 billion zillion people that find a way to enter this country ILLEGALLY, from Latin America or from anywhere else in this world.

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/10/2012 8:07:14 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:06:47 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?


To shut you up.

That is the only reason. To some, playing the race card is the wild card. Can't be beat. And, even if you overcome the charge (you know, by exposing the truth), the damage has been done.

That's why. It's all about winning, regardless of telling lies or truths.

_____________________________

What I support:

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  • Personal Responsibility
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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:22:17 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I have a couple of threads that I plan to start, about some of the issues concerning illegal immigration in the United States.

This particular thread is about one of my pet peeves.

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?

You actually have many immigrants, including some Hispanics that are here legally that see the problems that unbridled illegal immigration is causing in this country.

I have nothing against Hispanics, and I am still slowly learning Spanish.
I enjoy interacting with people of all ethnicities.

Of course, there ARE people that are racist that dislike/or even hate illegal immigrants and maybe all immigrants.
But it is wrong/and ignorant to throw that in someone's face because they don't support amnesty programs 100%, or voice concerns about issues regarding illegal immigration.

Why are so many so quick, to paint everyone with the same damn brush all the time?

Just because you happen to believe that any and every person that manages to walk, crawl or dig their way into this country should NOT be rewarded with automatic citizenship, does NOT make you a bigot or racist.

I am a person of color, and if everyone coming across the border looked just like me, I still would not feel that everyone should be given amnesty/citizenship/ or be allowed to stay in this country.

I do believe that some people should be given amnesty, but I think it has to do be done on a case by case basis, and not given to everyone.

I also feel that the US customs and border protection agency should be expanded, and getting our borders secured should be a priority.

It seems like we are waiting for some horrible national tragedy to occur, and than securing our borders will become numero uno.

There are a myriad of issues facing the United States, concerning people and children that are in this country illegally.

This OP was started to defend those of us, that are not racist and are also not happy about unbridled illegal immigration and the ramifications that are facing the United States.

I am not a racist, a bigot, and hardly anti-Hispanic, and I am entitled to believe that our country can not take in, nor support 500 billion zillion people that find a way to enter this country ILLEGALLY, from Latin America or from anywhere else in this world.

i believe that you're not a racist or a bigot and agree with your sentiment that it sucks that some people assume that. i think it comes from them lacking in their sense of fair play, and ignorance, and their anger at feeling exploited and oppressed.

no offense, but i think you also have to also do more self-inspection to ensure you're not coming off as bigoted. i.e., a couple of the things you assumed in your arguments.

besides that, i think your entire premise is flawed.

i think reasonable minds can disagree on whether we have "unbridled illegal immigration", or that it's causing more problems than it solves (assuming it's unbridled, which i don't think is the case).

i'm certain (enough to not bother trying to get internet citations) that illegal immigration has recently greatly decreased, because of poor economic conditions in northern america.

so i believe that your entire premise is therefore flawed because it's not a certainty that the costs of stopping illegal immigration (or the problems it may cause) are worth it, compared to letting the market handle the problem - as it appears to be doing.

yes, we should have a semblance of control at our borders, and keep it relatively expensive and difficult to defeat (to get across undetected). but no, when you argue that it's unbridled, it sounds like a loaded bigoted term (even though i trust you're not bigoted). and you assuming costs outweigh benefits stereotypically puts you in either of two camps - shilly republicans spouting a party line, or those who's wages may have been pushed down by cheaper labor. i happen to be in the second camp, but it's from legal immigration from Asia (mostly India). but i still don't agree that putting more resources into stopping immigration is the solution.

great thought provoking post.

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 5/10/2012 8:25:33 PM >

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RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:27:03 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think my premise is flawed at all.

Of course you are free to think that!

lol

I know I am not a bigot, nor do I dislike Hispanics.

I did state that certainly their ARE people that are bigots, but it is possible to support amnesty on a case by case basis, and not support total amnesty.

Isn't it great to be able to express our points of view?
I always like to agree to disagree.

Take care

Peace

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:29:20 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		yes, we're on the same page, but disagree on a few "key" points

of course it's all good, but i wish you were more fun to disagree with!

edit - i propose you start of each disagreement with "Jane you nasty slut".

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 5/10/2012 8:30:26 PM >

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If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

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RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:33:00 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

yes, we're on the same page, but disagree on a few "key" points

of course it's all good, but i wish you were more fun to disagree with!


Been on CM for almost 8 years.
I come here to play and enjoy myself.

I have not the interest, time nor energy to go to war on here.
I am not getting into circular arguments, or beat myself
over the head, because someone like you is WRONG on the internet!!!

In fact, I am one of those people that will put people on hide, and I enjoy making that announcement sometimes!!!!
lol




_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/10/2012 8:33:49 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?







Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:39:38 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

yes, we're on the same page, but disagree on a few "key" points

of course it's all good, but i wish you were more fun to disagree with!


Been on CM for almost 8 years.
I come here to play and enjoy myself.

I have not the interest, time nor energy to go to war on here.
I am not getting into circular arguments, or beat myself
over the head, because someone like you is WRONG on the internet!!!

In fact, I am one of those people that will put people on hide, and I enjoy making that announcement sometimes!!!!
lol




okay no worries, it's all good. i'm just playing around a bit myself. i love that you wrote out your thoughts and such rather than copy-pasting an article. it really was a great post and i was giving you my opinions on your stances. i hope i didn't offend you - i already know you're good person from our prior convo.


_____________________________

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If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

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Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 8:42:14 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline 		I really don't want this to turn into a them/vs. us thread, but I realize whenever you start a thread, you can expect a certain amount of drive by loonies online.

I don't even read posts that start with a link, and no explanation.
If I want to just read links, I can find plenty on google.

I get tired of click on this, read that, and copy and paste bullshit.

Why not just have a link board?
The person with the most links, and cut and paste articles wins.

I enjoy and appreciate those that take a few minutes to at least type their thoughts out, and not just throw a link in my face and say read this.
Take what you want, and ignore the rest!

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/10/2012 9:16:32 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/10/2012 8:52:18 PM   
AngelOfSilence


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/8/2012
Status: offline 		They don't.

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My lack of concern for your sensibilities knows no bounds.

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RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 9:04:37 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Too many see it in just black and white labels...Marini...Them us, repubs, libs, racist, commie, bigot even men/ women Dom/Domme sub/slave and not the finer shades of grey everything has, its a generic that says nothing but covers everything.
I don't like labels, I don't have room...but you get brought down to the coverall. Everybody does it, some more than others. I admit for me its laziness a lot of the time, I try to lend more than one definition/label, I too often don't manage it.
Regarding immigration, as an immigrant you find people assume an awful lot about you, so its like a badly wired safety mechanism, to be defensive, Again a human "flaw" we all have at some point.
Online especially is hard to guage the intent too. Its far to easy to get the wrong impression.
For the record, ive never thought of you as anything but too laid back to have that kind of issue, to the point of either bigot or racist. Not that I read ALL yur posts, but that is how I see you. Its a topic of contention for many...for good reasons and bad, but I think itn this case someone is maybe being over sensitive.
But thats just my two cents



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Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 9:06:29 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Hi, Mari.

I think part of the problem is that some people get so wrapped up in their own particular concerns about an issue that it never even occurs to them that other perfectly legitimate aspects and points of view might exist. It's your classic, stereotypical, knee-jerk, bleeding heart liberal methodology of basing their whole worldview on the, "awwww," response.

Since it would never enter their minds that others might see a problem associated with people coming to the US of A, with their very first act being one of contempt for our laws, it must just be that they are racists.


(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Being against illegal immigration DOES not automati... - 5/10/2012 9:23:24 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Too many see it in just black and white labels...Marini...Them us, repubs, libs, racist, commie, bigot even men/ women Dom/Domme sub/slave and not the finer shades of grey everything has, its a generic that says nothing but covers everything.
I don't like labels, I don't have room...but you get brought down to the coverall. Everybody does it, some more than others. I admit for me its laziness a lot of the time, I try to lend more than one definition/label, I too often don't manage it.
Regarding immigration, as an immigrant you find people assume an awful lot about you, so its like a badly wired safety mechanism, to be defensive, Again a human "flaw" we all have at some point.
Online especially is hard to guage the intent too. Its far to easy to get the wrong impression.
For the record, ive never thought of you as anything but too laid back to have that kind of issue, to the point of either bigot or racist. Not that I read ALL yur posts, but that is how I see you. Its a topic of contention for many...for good reasons and bad, but I think itn this case someone is maybe being over sensitive.
But thats just my two cents




Thank you Ms.Lucy!!!
This is one of those very heated topics, and so many people don't even want to read or listen to what you say, but are quick to judge you or call you names.

There are plenty of people HERE that I think should be given a variety of forms of amnesty, but we just don't need zillions and zillions of people entering any country illegally these days!

Sad thing is, many people and their children that should be getting AMNESTY or on the path to citizenship now, can't get it because we are too busy pointing fingers and calling people names.

On here, I almost always agree with you and many others, but every now and then I will disagree with people I NORMALLY agree with.

So what?

Do any of us have someone in our lives that we always agree with 100%?

Isn't it about trying to agree to disagree, make our points and move on?

Huggles to you Lucy!


< Message edited by Marini -- 5/10/2012 9:26:33 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/10/2012 10:45:41 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am a person of color

I am not a racist, a bigot, and hardly anti-Hispanic, and I am entitled to believe that our country can not take in, nor support 500 billion zillion people that find a way to enter this country ILLEGALLY, from Latin America or from anywhere else in this world.


which color is that?


well we stole the whole west from mexico and there is lots of controversy about the legitimacy of hildago.

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h142.html


we now receive our just deserts for our criminal gubafia!


Christine A. Klein
Excerpted from:
Treaties of Conquest: Property Rights, Indian Treaties and the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, 26 N.M. L. Rev. 201, 201-204, 218-229 (Spring 1996)
(cites omitted)



The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo guaranteed that private property rights would be "inviolably respected" and that the inhabitants of the conquered territory would be "maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property ...." The Supreme Court expressed its confidence that the United States would live up to those solemn promises:


[The United States] have desired to act as a great nation, not seeking, in extending their authority over the ceded country, to enforce forfeitures, but to afford protection and security to all just rights which could have been claimed from the government they superseded.

Despite such generous pronouncements, many property rights arising under Spanish and Mexican land grants were not recognized by the United States. In California, approximately twenty-seven percent of land grant claims were rejected; in the territory of New Mexico, some seventy-six percent of such claims were rejected.

These land loss statistics can be attributed, in significant part, to the fact that the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was not regarded as self- executing. As a result, Mexican property rights were not ratified by the treaty itself but had to await congressional action for their confirmation. Thus, the implementing legislation and not the treaty became effectively the "law of the land." That legislation, in turn, required Mexican landowners to assume the burden of proving the validity of their titles and to negotiate a maze of legal requirements implemented by a system and in a language that were foreign to them. Even confirmed land grants, moreover, were subsequently lost due to the enormous costs of litigation. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu6.htm


in other words THEY GOT SAND PAPER FUCKED! U.S. SOP.




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RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 3:08:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		FR
the first thing to show you're not bigoted is to establish what "harm" immigrants are doing. A good grounding in the history of immigration in this country would be helpful in not bringing up the same nonsensical complaints as were made against previous "undesirable" groups.

Then an acknowledgement that it is inevitable and unavoidable that people will seek a better life and the only way to curb undocumented immigration is by vigorously pursuing those who employ them not by harassing poor people seeking a better life for their children.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 4:10:05 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		The problem with the immigration policy in the USA is that it has been given band-aid after band-aid but never a real overhaul of the whole thing. Such a new policy would have to take mulitiple situations into consideration to make sure the new set of laws and regulations are applied evenly across the board. Or else the new policy will simply be stripped away in court cases one after the other. Even worst, is that this issue has become like all the other stalemate issues in this country: Abortion, Firearms, Energy vs Enviroment, Wall Street, etc. People have so much time, money, and even political crap built up on this issue they have much to lose if it doesnt go the way they want it. Likewise, you have people that really are bigots and are not likely to comprise on anything that allows the object of their hatred have anything good. We all observed the Affordable Care Act's passage with Republicans trying every little tactic to undermine the bill before it was put into law (and have since, tried to undermine it in anyway). Do you really think Congress has the will to deal with this issue like adults?

I liked the Kennedy/McCain bill of 2007. Its aim was to break up the policy into three areas. The first area discussed dealing with those whom were less than two or three years in the country by simply deporting them. Those beyond that mark but under twenty years that wished to stay had to both A) Pay a fine (between $5-20K) and B) Work towards gaining citizenship. Those beyond the twenty year mark, were simply allowed to stay but were politely asked to become citizens as soon as they could. The bill has its problems, but given the two names drafting it, I believe it was and still is the best concept to push the overhaul forward. It has come under fire by several conservatives and organizations that this policy would effectively give be granting amnesty to those that broke the law. To which I ask two questions: 1) Do these conservatives have a better idea for an immigration policy and 2) Will it be agreed upon by liberals in a 'fair stake' discussion?

At current, the US House of Representatives have passed numerous bills for all sorts of things. However, these bills have been heavily laden 'conservative dogma' aimed at improving Republican's re-election bids this fall. Its so those guys can say they did everything in their power to push forward what their citizens wanted but those damn "liberal, socialistic, tree-hugging, commie, mutant, dumb, unAmerican Democrats" voted it down in the Senate. The problem is that the bills being sent from the House to the Senate are designed to fail, and the Republicans know this. If they actually spent time crafting a bill that would 'squeek-by' in the Senate, they could than say they did what their citizens in their state/district wished without lying about it.

Given these conditions, I really do not see an immigration policy being worked out, voted and sent to the President's desk for final authorization before the next election. Its simply all sides, people, and organizations playing politics while nothing on the subject gets done. Everyone will have something to bitch about between now and the next election (and even afterward); because the alternative is to risky this close to an election. It would be a pretty bold move on Congress's part to actually have Republicans and Democrats get together, and push a reasonably comprised bill that both sides get some of the stuff they wanted before the next election. Would improve Congress's approval rating. Likewise, would show Americans that serious problems affecting the nation are more important than petty party politics. But, I think we all know what the likelyhood of this happening, right?

< Message edited by joether -- 5/11/2012 4:12:56 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 4:30:03 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


Posts: 393
Joined: 4/12/2012
Status: offline 		For me the only time I get the "bigot" scent is when I hear the 200 yr old refrain" that group is different they won't assimilate, they don't want to assisimilate" If Idont hear that my only concern become is the medicine worse then the problem because illegal immmigration is a problem. I would say you arent the only one who faces critism. Bewing against people like that racist affront to the constitution Sheriff Joe does not make when pro illegal immigrant. It runs both ways. So, many people assume because I think Sheriff Joe's disregard of civil rights laws should land him in jail doesnt make me pro illegal immigrant


When I do hear thre "they wont or dont want to assimilate arguement I genearlly won't engage. I I know it's racist bigoted nonesense of the same type used against Irish, Chinese, Italians, Eastern Europeans.... One thing I will say is anyone who is concerned and talks about whole sale expulsion should read up on the outcome the last time we did it. If you didn't know we already have doen that once then do you really know the issue or are you reling on the for breathers to inform you?

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 4:33:43 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


Posts: 393
Joined: 4/12/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?







I'd love to hear your fix for the problem. I hve a feeoling it would be a good read. Of course if you'd rather just insult people because you have nothing to add to the conversation I gues....that's.....ok....or is it??? mmm where are the rules again?

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 5:01:08 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline 		I think the confusion is because people generally don't admit they're racist these days and all the racists are on your side of the argument.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Not supporting UNBRIDLED illegal immigration does n... - 5/11/2012 7:14:55 AM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Why do so many people, automatically assume that because someone is not 100% PRO illegal immigration, and supporting it 100%, that the person is a racist, a bigot, or has some sort of hatred against the Hispanic population?


I personally wouldn't think that at all. I'm against illegal immigration to a large extent the way it's playing out. I just don't think ethnic profiling, splitting up families with ridiculous laws and strong man positions for the purpose of garnering votes.

And frankly, I can't remember ANY post by you that would leave me with the impression that you were bigoted against anyone ... except perhaps AMC Pacer Driving Bastids like that Marc2b guy

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