RE: Why Atheism Scares People

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Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 4:45:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead (And I was asking specifically about your comment about the homeless guy sleeping in the gutter not being your problem. I see the context still escapes you. Get it right, please. Till you do, you can suck wind.

Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 4:53:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Yachtie, your original claim was: "As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." (post #5) Moonhead advanced a number of quotes from the Bible that suggest an interpretation at considerable variance to your claim above. Moonhead asked you: "Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?" (post # 6) Your response was, in my view, an exercise in sophistry: "If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that. If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility. To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same? " (post #12) Moonhead has posed a basic question, after offering persuasive evidence to rebut your original claim. Your response to this has been to attempt to obfuscate the notion of "responsibility" rather than address the points Moonhead raised. As things stand at the moment, you are losing this argument by default. From where I sit, your response is wholly inadequate. Please respond directly to the question Moonhead put to you. Sure. When within the context from which it was taken, which is what my sophistry[8\|] was about.

hardcybermaster -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 4:57:08 PM)
actually got anything to say or is this going to be another pointless exercise is semantics and grammar?

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:03:41 PM)
quote: How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets. How has poverty changed over time? In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent. For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004. Since the late 1960s, the poverty rate for people over 65 has fallen dramatically. The poverty rate for children has historically been somewhat higher than the overall poverty rate. The poverty rate for people in households headed by single women is significantly higher than the overall poverty rate. Source: National Poverty Center Lyndon Johnson launched the War on Poverty in January 1964. Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981.

DomKen -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:06:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets. How has poverty changed over time? In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent. For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004. Since the late 1960s, the poverty rate for people over 65 has fallen dramatically. The poverty rate for children has historically been somewhat higher than the overall poverty rate. The poverty rate for people in households headed by single women is significantly higher than the overall poverty rate. Source: National Poverty Center Lyndon Johnson launched the War on Poverty in January 1964. Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981. What an amazing coincidence...

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:10:44 PM)
quote: "God helps those who help themselves", This is a proverb, stemming back to Aesop and quoted by Benjamin Franklin (who thus often gets credit for it). So far as I know, it's not actually a religious teaching.

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:12:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR This has been a fascinating thread, and I thank ftp for the honesty and insight that went into her OP. I suspect that many people do indeed find it daunting to contemplate a world where "Shit happens" with no rhyme or reason. I've felt that fear myself, and I do think one of the key sources of religion's appeal to folks is that it offers a way to make sense of things. Two thoughts that I don't think anyone has mentioned: (a) One powerful aspect of religion is its role in creating and maintaining community. I don't simply mean the kinship that can arise from shared belief, but the flesh-and-blood connections that arise out of seeing folks regularly, opening up one's heart and mind to them, undertaking volunteer work or service projects together, and being together (casseroles in hand) during times of joy and grief. I realize community can arise in other settings as well, of course. (b) I get that one doesn't need God to be good, though it does strike me that the moral ideals many of us espouse--that life is good, that people should be treated with dignity, that societies should be just, and so forth--are empirically unprovable and therefore require (forgive me, but I can't resist) a "leap of faith." That is the saddest thing in all of this, that you need to say that at all. Why should you? it's just basic common sense to most people. At what point does anyone need the 10 commandmants to know whats right and wrong? Never I hope. What the hell is wrong with people having somewhere welcoming and safe to go and talk to other kind people, nothing I hope. Yet somehow atheists get told that they can't be part of this, what a load of bollocks Cyber, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, nor am I convinced that you comprehended my post.

mmpie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:20:19 PM)
Can someone explain the parameters of being an atheist? I am not a part of any church nor do I believe in any dogma. Yet I still pray and have faith in a higher intelligence to the universe. Does atheism mean you believe that there is no purpose? That would be interesting. Or is it that you don't have faith in anything but yourself? Which is a ludicrous statement since every moment of the day we face a situation that involving faith. Will my car work today? Will I slip on the stairs and fall to my death? Will the water I drink be safe? Will gravity continue to prevail against dark energy? What you are arguing is two cultures. Your culture of being an atheist and the other culture of being in a religion. Both cultures have a foundation in an ideal and a community. What matters to me is, what is your point? Atheism is not scary. It is silly to me, but I respect that others divulge so much passion and 'belief' into it. Just like I respect those that put so much faith in to the scriptures.

hardcybermaster -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:24:33 PM)
space is your friend mmpie use it

DaddySatyr -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:24:59 PM)
"Atheism" simply means "without belief" as "Agnostic" means "without knowledge". The "A" prefix in Greek means "without"; not "against". So, "Atheism" literally means: "without belief". Peace and comfort, Michael

ClassIsInSession -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:32:08 PM)
I think the simple fact is that Atheism scares people who are not confident enough in their faith. Faith by definition is believing in something you cannot prove logically. I do believe in God, and I've had experiences that I've tried to rationalize logically and can't, elements of synchronicity and what one might call 'divine intervention' that are so completely impossible to widdle away with logic or scientific method that I can only conclude the one left remaining possibility. But that takes my faith out of faith and into experience. As such, I'm not in the slightest bit afraid of atheism or atheists. Each person has their own experience and beliefs. My experience of divinity is in no way diminished by the lack of similar experiences for anyone else. I am by nature, very logical, and I completely concur that there are variables I may well not have considered. From the same perspective, it could be that "God" is really the deity depicted in one of the myriad of religious doctrines, an element of a collective consciousness, the Universe, not existing at all or something none of us have ever contemplated. Once we pass through the threshold of death, we'll probably know one way or the other. If most religious folk would simply acknowledge that fact, we could eliminate any violence that comes from the insecurity about who's God is real, or who's God is bigger than any other deity. I've often said that whatever God is, if he does in fact exist, and I strongly believe he does, he is far more able than me to take action against another person than I am, and without the constraints or punishments I would/could incur from delivering those actions. Therefore, I strive to live peacefully and allow others the respect of their own beliefs. Additionally, it has always seemed to be the best way to introduce someone to your doctrine is to live your life by it, and if your fruits are measurably better, people will be naturally inclined to inquire why that is.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:41:14 PM)
It goes to the point of "discernment" that was made.

Rule -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:41:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I will continue to both do and advocate for policies that ensure a well cared for society. Because prayer and a reliance on god to solve the world's problems is not, actually, going to work. Maybe because of such prayer someone like you was born, eh?

LadyPact -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:50:42 PM)
I'm really just repeating what some people have said throughout the thread, but I wanted to express My view anyway. I don't think it is so much that people of faith or those who follow a particular religion are afraid of atheists. There are certain atheists in particular (and we have some of them on these boards) who do have a habit of being very insulting when it comes to other people's beliefs. It's not very difficult to see the evidence of certain people beating the drum of how stupid those who do believe in religion are and it's easily accessed by posting history. So, basically, it's the reverse of you not wanting to be converted. You don't want to be personally attacked because you don't believe any more than we want to be attacked because we do. Unfortunately, this often leads to generalizations about the other side no matter which side a person happens to find themselves on. Oddly enough, except for these boards, I've never run across the experience of having any atheist do so in person. Which is kind of funny because the atheists who have made their opinions known on the matter, and I have met in person, are because I've met them through these boards. It's more like what Hib related earlier. We know we have different views, but friendship seems to be more important. Yes, I'm sure I wish them a Merry Christmas or some other silly thing, but it doesn't become some kind of big blow up. Just for info, not all people of faith will tell someone they are going to hell or even use that phrase. That's not because of what you don't believe, OP. That's because of what I believe. If a person does believe in hell, wouldn't telling somebody to go there be an absolutely horrible thing to wish on them?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:54:34 PM)
Christians consign people to hell all the time, LP.

LadyPact -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 5:58:24 PM)
Yes, some do, Hib. I happen to be one of those that don't use the phrase at all. Personal quirk of Mine.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:10:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I'm really just repeating what some people have said throughout the thread, but I wanted to express My view anyway. I don't think it is so much that people of faith or those who follow a particular religion are afraid of atheists. There are certain atheists in particular (and we have some of them on these boards) who do have a habit of being very insulting when it comes to other people's beliefs. It's not very difficult to see the evidence of certain people beating the drum of how stupid those who do believe in religion are and it's easily accessed by posting history. So, basically, it's the reverse of you not wanting to be converted. You don't want to be personally attacked because you don't believe any more than we want to be attacked because we do. Unfortunately, this often leads to generalizations about the other side no matter which side a person happens to find themselves on. Oddly enough, except for these boards, I've never run across the experience of having any atheist do so in person. Which is kind of funny because the atheists who have made their opinions known on the matter, and I have met in person, are because I've met them through these boards. It's more like what Hib related earlier. We know we have different views, but friendship seems to be more important. Yes, I'm sure I wish them a Merry Christmas or some other silly thing, but it doesn't become some kind of big blow up. Just for info, not all people of faith will tell someone they are going to hell or even use that phrase. That's not because of what you don't believe, OP. That's because of what I believe. If a person does believe in hell, wouldn't telling somebody to go there be an absolutely horrible thing to wish on them? I do agree that most atheists will not confront people in real life. I have rarely in my life ever witnessed that. I think these boards allow people to say things sometimes that they would never say to someone's face. I have been told, to my face, that I will go to hell, by people who believe in hell. I am only commenting from my own personal experience. I am glad you don't go around telling people that. But here is the thing. For those people who believe that they are, in fact, responsible for my spiritual salvation, they feel they don't have a choice but to tell me that unless I accept Christ as my savior, that I am doomed to an eternity in hell. They are simply fulfilling one of the obligations of their religion. And they really believe that I am going to go to hell. Again, this is what their religion says.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:15:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets. How has poverty changed over time? In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9 million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By 1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 35.3 million individuals, or 15.2 percent. For the next ten years, the poverty rate remained above 12.8 percent, increasing to 15.1 percent, or 39.3 million individuals, by 1993. The rate declined for the remainder of the decade, to 11.3 percent by 2000. From 2000 to 2004 it rose each year to 12.7 in 2004. Since the late 1960s, the poverty rate for people over 65 has fallen dramatically. The poverty rate for children has historically been somewhat higher than the overall poverty rate. The poverty rate for people in households headed by single women is significantly higher than the overall poverty rate. Source: National Poverty Center Lyndon Johnson launched the War on Poverty in January 1964. Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981. So looks like the War on Poverty had a significant impact as long as people believed it was a societal concern. It is my view, and I've stated this on other threads, that it is a collective responsibility to take care of the poor. Not because god, scripture, or any such thing tells me so.

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:26:16 PM)
quote: So looks like the War on Poverty had a significant impact as long as people believed it was a societal concern. Exactly,

SternSkipper -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:26:42 PM)
Now THAT'S a fucking riot! quote: [image]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9XjijECNpxM/TcC8kdFm7rI/AAAAAAAAADI/ECWNH8j6kec/s1600/atheist_2Dpamphlets_thumbnail.jpg[/image]

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