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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:22:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

I would add an image that's haunted me ever since learning about it in sixth grade. After World War II, divided Berlin became something of a microcosm for competing philosophies. People in East Berlin were so determined to flee Communist rule that the regime literally had to build a wall to keep folks in..

They most certainly wanted to keep the germans (who were responsible for the murder of 25 million russians during ww2...7 million soldiers and 18 million civilians whose only crime was being russian in public) in the position where the old fasioned practice of "getting even" would be practiced. That the "cold warriors" would conflate this into "stoping those peace loving sweeties from exercising their god given right to freedom yadda yadda yadda.

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:25:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

It doesn't work.

That and it kills lots and lots of people.

Some of us think that gulags are bad.

Again, capitalism has killed more people. Also, were the internment camps of WWII acceptable? At the time, they were.

its not the "ism" that kills people, its the godless asswipes on top who control the guns. the guns are any style name or type of enforcement.

It has never been any different. It all gets back to the several aristocracy and the mobs they call government, often in the name of the people.

Sort of like the federal reserve which is not federal (as in part of the USA) at all!

Its all a nice illusion that people who need a fantasy suck up rather than face the desert of the real.

~Neo

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

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(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:29:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And beleive me.......in China......communism is doing quite well and wall street LOVES them.

In fairness, though, doesn't China's recent success owe a lot to policies, under Deng Xiaoping and his successors, that made the economy much more market-oriented?

It`s still a top down communist system with the government subsidizing/controlling/directing their biggest businesses and the economy.

And the Chi-coms are just as "godless" as ever.....which is the point of the thread.

I lol when I hear republicans/anti communists chortle on about how awful the godless communist are but have no problem doing business with them.

and that is what life is.

corporate commercial rights trump all rights in all gubafias

rare we agree on anything but this one we do

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:41:35 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

It doesn't work.

That and it kills lots and lots of people.

Some of us think that gulags are bad.

Again, capitalism has killed more people. Also, were the internment camps of WWII acceptable? At the time, they were.

War.

Also, I do not think that we had 60 million people in internment camps.

There was a war going on though.

Communism kills people without a war going on.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:50:02 AM

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they waste anyone who threatens their status quo.

that senator in arizona was not the target of the maniac killer, the judge was, but the attention was put purely on the senator.

the judge was about to rule on a case that would have done extreme damage to the banking industry.

The judges of this country as as much a hostage as the rest of us.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 7:13:47 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

It doesn't work.

That and it kills lots and lots of people.

Some of us think that gulags are bad.

Again, capitalism has killed more people. Also, were the internment camps of WWII acceptable? At the time, they were.

War.

Also, I do not think that we had 60 million people in internment camps.

There was a war going on though.

Communism kills people without a war going on.

So does Capitalism. Native American reservations, anyone?

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 7:19:39 AM

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It is not so much the godlessness that bothers me as that fact that the godlessness is enforced. I am disdainful of religious fundamentalists of any stripe but as long as they mind their manners (that is, respect the rights of others) I am content to let them be. They can sit on their pews and rant about the evils of homosexuality or evolution all they want. I may not like it, but I respect their right to do so... as long as they respect the rights of others and don't try to impose their faith on others (in other words, keep your stupid creationism out of the science classrooms and lay of the gays who want to get married).

Communism, like almost any ideology, looks good on paper but it inevitably runs into that old bugaboo - human nature. In economic terms, communism is socialism taken to the extreme and you rarely find the answers to anything at the extremes. As others have noted, China has had to liberalize its economy to get it to work (likewise, a totally unregulated economy wouldn't work either... the trick, as all the endless arguments attest to, is in finding the right balance).

My biggest problem with communism, however, is that, despite proclamations to the contrary, it amounts to just another case of a few powerful individuals at the top exploiting those beneath them (the fact that they proclaim themselves a classless society is some of the rankest hypocrisy humans have ever come up with). Every nation that has ever been ruled by communists has been nothing more that another tyrannical oligarchy.

Whatever flaws representative democracy may has, it is still flexible enough to change with the times and to oust the worst of the bad apples at the top... or at least limit their duration. Ever since I can remember I've been hearing from the "patriotic opposition" that the current President is going to implement martial law and rule as a dictator. Nixon was going to do it, Carter was going to do it, and so were Reagan, Bush (the Elder), Clinton, Bush (the Younger) and now Obama is planning on doing it (Ford seems to be the one exception... too busy getting up from the tarmac I suppose). Despite these dire proclamations, it has never happened.

Which is not to say that it couldn't happen but so far, so good. Eternal vigilance is the price we pay. Freedom is a tenuous thing. Contrary to the dramatic screaming of many on the internet, the United States is NOT a police state... yet... communist governments are.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:00:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

Ok, so... I've heard a number of people lately screaming about "Godless Communism". Yes, they are mostly anti-Obama tea party knuckledraggers, but I digress.

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

I've also heard the idea that "it doesnt work". How do you know it doesnt? Sure, the Soviet Union went under, but they also bankrupted themselves by fighting in Afghanistan for almost 10 years after a period of worldwide economic stagnation (sound familiar?).

"Communism is anti-religious". Well, ok, to some extent this is true. Granted, the USSR and PRC never had a friendly relationship with beleivers, however if you ask most American communists, they would agree that a persons beleifs are their buisness. As far a Marx calling religion "The opiate of the masses", well, do these right wing bible thumping types seem like sane and rational people to you?

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

nothing "scares" me about it. i'm all for letting what works work.

but it's failed the world over, not just the Soviets.

Perhaps you might want to validate this assanine statement with something besides the puke that eminates from faux news.

quote:

Even the Chinese have switched to a market economy and encourage small scale capitalism, which is driving the growth of their middle class. same direction in Cuba.

Because you parrot faux news does not the truth make

quote:

it has been an excuse for dictatorships, which tend to kill their own people, as opposed to "democracies" which tend to kill people in other countries.

I would call you attention to the following quote uttered by virtually every president from washington to teddy roosevelt..."the only good indian is a dead indian"

quote:

given that choice, i guess i would pick democracy for obvious self-serving reasons.

Given that you have no clue about history or economics

quote:

re religion - communism has always suppressed the right of people to be free and freely worship as they please. more so than democracies. i don't care much about organized religion, but think it's vital for others to be able to care about it if they so choose.

The russian constitution guarantees the freedom of conscience to worship anything you choose.
But:
Not on the peoples nickle. The state(read tsar) required all russians to worship the christian god. The tsar took state property and gifted it to the christian church. For this he was made a saint and guaranteed a seat at the right hand of god.
The bolshiviks did just as the tsar did in claiming that the state is the owner of all resources in the country. As such they simply took back what the tsar had given...just as the tsar gave and took at whim.

quote:

i challenge you to honestly dispute any of the above.

Game on

(in reply to Karmastic)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:18:48 AM

kdsub

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The basic principles of communism are much older than Marx and some of the first followers of communism were Christians....soooooo so much for godlessness in communism.

I believe communism is a wonderful moral idea that is doomed to failure because it goes against the nature of man. We are greedy creatures at times and crave praise, success, and wealth and must feed our pride with personal accomplishment even if at the expense of others.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:21:33 AM

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Absolutely.
Most of the examples of communism actually working are religious communities. The kibbutzim in Israel and Catholic monastic orders spring to mind for a start.

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(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:26:27 AM

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To say nothing of the early christian church. Godless communists that they were.

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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:29:11 AM

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Definitely. That Christ was clearly a Godless commie. Just look at all that shit he said about the pharisees...

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 8:58:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

How, specifically, does colective farming in russia differ from agribiz in the u.s.?
I am curious how it is that during a world wide famine only the ukrainians were specifically the only ones who starved due to stalin's actions?
How,specifically, does a gulag differ from a reservation?

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 9:01:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

One should also consider that most Germans and Italians were god fearing.........the time WWII was going down.

But their Dictatoships were Socialists . . . . Fascism was Socialist at its core; not free enterprise.

Isn't socialism where the state controls the means of production for the benifit of all the citizens of that country?
Isn't fascism where the state controls the means of production for the benifit of private capital?

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 9:12:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The basic principles of communism are much older than Marx and some of the first followers of communism were Christians....soooooo so much for godlessness in communism.

The "christian communism" you speak of was for the express purpose of making the pope rich and nothing more.
Were you to actually read marx you might disabuse yourself of your ignorance.

quote:

I believe communism is a wonderful moral idea that is doomed to failure because it goes against the nature of man.

I am unaware of anyplace where communism has actually been practiced.
Russia (ussr) was a socialist system not communist.
Perhaps in your opinion the nature of humans prevent communism but you have failed to demonstrate any validity for your opinion

quote:

We are greedy creatures at times and crave praise, success, and wealth and must feed our pride with personal accomplishment even if at the expense of others.

Butch

You may speak for yourself but do not presume to speak for me...not everyone on this planet is a self absorbed asshole.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 9:21:52 AM

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Highlighting a strong similarity between the reality of Communism and the reality of Free Market Capitalism (versus the book definition of each):

For those who might not recognize the people in the graphic:
Josef Stalin - Former Dictator of The former Union Of Soviet Socalist Republics
David H. Koch & Charles G. Koch - Free-market American capitalists who effectively "own" many conservative American politicians

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 5/22/2012 9:27:20 AM >

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"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 9:30:43 AM

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quote:

Corrupted

Posts: 746
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Status: online Highlighting a strong similarity between the reality of Communism and the reality of Free Market Capitalism (verus the book definition of each:

The reality of communism is that it is not and has not ever been put into practice. Stalin presided over a socialist system. The reality of free market capitalism is that those two terms are mutually exclusive and self contradictory. Capitalism seeks to destryoy the free market by acquiring market share to the point of monopoly.
Would you not agree?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 10:15:58 AM

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What most of the "capitalists" do isn`t capitalism or free enterprise.

In capitalism......there`s no secret deals,betting other people`s money on risky bets and bets designed to be lost.

In capitalism,the markets are supposed to be open and honest and policed and fair.What you buy in is worth what it was sold as.

Capitalism isn`t inside info and insider trading with a privileged few benefiting.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/22/2012 10:17:35 AM >

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(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 10:44:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

One should also consider that most Germans and Italians were god fearing.........the time WWII was going down.

But their Dictatoships were Socialists . . . . Fascism was Socialist at its core; not free enterprise.

Isn't socialism where the state controls the means of production for the benifit of all the citizens of that country?
Isn't fascism where the state controls the means of production for the benifit of private capital?

Maybe in the dictionary, TommyX, but in reality it was quite different.

Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky and the Internatonale were Collectivists on the Left. Hitler and Mussolini were Collectivists on the Right. Lenin's premise from the outset was that the revolution could only be brought about and maintained by a ruthless central cadre. Uncle Joe took that ball and ran amuck with it. It would be delusional to believe they cared a wit for the benefit of the people. The proleteriat was a means to revolution.

Hitler used the industrialists strictly to rearm Germany. I doubt he gave a rat's ass about any benefit to private capital. Undoubtably you are aware that the Nazis were the National SOCIALIST Party. The marriage of Fascism and Socialism was engineered by Benito Mussoini in his concept of the 'corporate state.' Benito was originally a very active member and journalist/propagandists for the Italian Socialist Party. One of them anyway. Until he marched on Rome and intimidated King Immanuel into appointing him PM. Benito was a bully who had dreams of revisiting the Roman Empire. Hitler seems to have co-opted that same dream from his mentor Mussolini.

If you go back to the revolutions of 1848 you will probably find some socialist doctrine that supports your definitions. However, the workers revolutions at that time were often in conflict with the Aristocracy, the peasants, and the revolutions of the land holders against the crown. It was all a freakin mess.

I think I got all of that right. Correct me otherwise.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 10:50:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Corrupted

Posts: 746
Joined: 8/3/2004
Status: online Highlighting a strong similarity between the reality of Communism and the reality of Free Market Capitalism (verus the book definition of each:

The reality of communism is that it is not and has not ever been put into practice. Stalin presided over a socialist system. The reality of free market capitalism is that those two terms are mutually exclusive and self contradictory. Capitalism seeks to destryoy the free market by acquiring market share to the point of monopoly.
Would you not agree?

Excellent point.

with regards to monopolistic capitalism. As for the Soviets, it was really a ruthless Dictatorship, as we all know.

(in reply to thompsonx)

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