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RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:04:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Well duh,
If it helps those who defend themselfs it can't also help their attackers who you choose to call victims.
If you read it you know that the reason for the disparity in walking is that the black attackers were far more likely to be armed which made the defense work much better.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 6/4/2012 6:08:45 PM >

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:05:45 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Daltonpost.com violent crime in Fl has dropped 24% since passage of syg hardly the wild west.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:09:03 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

The Tampa Bay Times analyzed 192 of Florida’s adjudicated Stand Your Ground cases and found that:

- Overall, black defendants went free 66 percent of the time in fatal cases compared to 61 percent for white defendants — a difference explained, in part, by the fact blacks were more likely to kill another black.
- People who killed a black person walked free 73 percent of the time, while those who killed a white person went free 59 percent of the time.


And the likely reason for those stats is explained later in the article:

"Black victims were more likely to be carrying a weapon when they were killed. They also were more likely than whites to be committing a crime, such as burglary, at the time."

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:10:23 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah what I said.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:16:30 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		politifact.com
stand your ground

Fl has experienced a 23% drop in crime sinc syg was passed complete with charts

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:19:06 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

And the likely reason for those stats is explained later in the article:

And conveniently omitted by our oh-so-sincere defender of righteousness and justice.

K.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:25:27 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Reports of justifiable homicides tripled after the law went into effect

Why that's horrible! We want unjustified homicides, dammit. Innocent victims dead! What the hell is the matter with these people? Have they no social conscience? Thank you for posting that. This has to stop. It's fucking outrageous.

K.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 6:33:04 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just a thought, could it be that violent crime dropped 23% because justifiable homosides went up?
More dead bad guys, more dangerous for the rest ?

No that couldn't be it.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 7:23:02 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
When a person is assaulted on the street and defendes themself the law has to take one of two approaches .

A. He has to prove self defense, guilty until proven innocent.

or

B. The state has to prove it wasn't self defense. Innocent until proven guilty.

Stand your ground takes the later position you take the former.


Yeah, sounds about right though that does leave out variables like appropriate force and whether one needed to defend themselves or could have just walked away.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 7:41:47 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Those factors come into play if the state tries to prove it wasn't justified.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 7:45:10 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Actually the crime rate in the US has been dropping for some time, long before the "stand your ground laws" have come into effect.  There are many theories on this but no one has prove to be the single answer.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/21/america-serious-crime-rate-plunging

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0524/US-crime-rate-is-down-six-key-reasons

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 8:58:03 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Even the man who wrote the Fl syg law says it's not the only factor but it is a far cry from your insistance that syg will cause the streets to run red with blood, a return to the wild west with shootouts in the streets been 7 years there and it hasn't happened yet.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/4/2012 9:22:12 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Even the man who wrote the Fl syg law says it's not the only factor but it is a far cry from your insistance that syg will cause the streets to run red with blood, a return to the wild west with shootouts in the streets been 7 years there and it hasn't happened yet.


The NRA wrote it and lobbied heavily for it
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/22/449961/how-nra-fueled-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/?mobile=nc

But the downward trend has been going on for alot longer.  I think a bigger factor is mandorty sentencing.  One agruement I have with the FBI and others is that Cyber Crime is not regarding at the same level as Rape, Murder and Robbery.  And Cyber Crime is growing.  There is one little device smaller than Zimmerman weapon that all I have to do is walk past you and it will read all the plastic you carrying.  While you at home behind sandbags waiting for me to bust in, I am at home on my computer hacking into all your accounts and creating new ones leaving you with the bill, alot of good your guns did. Oh and give it time, the crime rate will go back up again.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 12:59:04 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The NRA wrote it and lobbied heavily for it
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/22/449961/how-nra-fueled-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/?mobile=nc

From your bullshit link:

the “Stand Your Ground” law that Sanford police have used to excuse the shooting and killing Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman

That's just an outright lie, as becomes apparent later in the piece when it refers to a 2005 "Action Alert" to NRA members:

The alert claimed that “SB-436 corrects a serious problem for citizens who chose to protect themselves in the face of attack by violent criminals. ” There has been no evidence to suggest that was what happened in the Martin case.

If it doesn't apply, what's the connection? If it doesn't apply, how can the police have used it to "excuse" the shooting? And if it doesn't apply, why are they using the Martin case as a hammer to attack the law?

I don't know what kind of day job you have, but I hope you work with your hands.

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 6:00:34 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
politifact.com
stand your ground

Fl has experienced a 23% drop in crime sinc syg was passed complete with charts


So you've cited politifact but not actually included the link so the rest of us can easy see what you're talking about, why was that?

Perhaps because politifact doesn't actually agree with you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/mar/23/dennis-baxley/crime-rates-florida-have-dropped-stand-your-ground/
Our ruling

Baxley said "We’ve had a dramatic drop in violent crime since this law has been in effect." His comments in television interviews implied the law itself reduced violent crime rates. There has been a drop, but rates were declining before the law went into effect. We found no proof that that the "stand your ground" law caused the drop in crime rates; some groups worry the law could lead to more violence. We rate his claim Half True.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 7:13:27 AM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel



So you've cited politifact but not actually included the link so the rest of us can easy see what you're talking about, why was that?

Perhaps because politifact doesn't actually agree with you?


I dunno, look at what BamaD said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Fl has experienced a 23% drop in crime sinc syg was passed complete with charts



and look at what Politifact said:


quote:

We found that violent crime has dropped significantly in Florida since 2005. (The law went into effect Oct. 1, 2005.) ... By 2010, the violent crime rate had dropped 23 percent since 2005. (See chart below.)


It does, in fact, look like Politifact agreed with BamaD's statement. Note, BamaD's statement didn't have causality mentioned in it for Politifact to agree or disagree with.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 7:31:15 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm all for self defense, I'm not for legalizing gang warfare. As far as I can tell we're talking about the lowering of the requirements for legally killing someone to below Wild West standards.

I've heard this before. But I've never seen anybody peddling that story present anything to back it up, and it doesn't pass the smell test. The SYG law here in Florida removes the duty to retreat when a person is engaged in a legal activity in a place where he or she has a legal right to be. These gang murders and not being committed by CCW permit-holders, or even by and large by people who would qualify for one, and you are not engaged in a "legal activity" if you are walking around in felony possession of a firearm. So protection under the SYG law would not be available in those circumstances.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2012 7:39:43 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 7:42:55 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The NRA wrote it and lobbied heavily for it
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/22/449961/how-nra-fueled-floridas-stand-your-ground-law/?mobile=nc

From your bullshit link:

the “Stand Your Ground” law that Sanford police have used to excuse the shooting and killing Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman

That's just an outright lie, as becomes apparent later in the piece when it refers to a 2005 "Action Alert" to NRA members:

The alert claimed that “SB-436 corrects a serious problem for citizens who chose to protect themselves in the face of attack by violent criminals. ” There has been no evidence to suggest that was what happened in the Martin case.

If it doesn't apply, what's the connection? If it doesn't apply, how can the police have used it to "excuse" the shooting? And if it doesn't apply, why are they using the Martin case as a hammer to attack the law?

I don't know what kind of day job you have, but I hope you work with your hands.

K.


Zimmerman did envoke the "stand your ground law" that is why he was released the night of Martin death. As do others.  I sugguest you read the law. 

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 9:09:46 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Zimmerman did envoke the "stand your ground law" that is why he was released the night of Martin death. As do others. I sugguest you read the law.

Zimmerman was released because the state attorney's office deemed the evidence available at the time insufficient to support probable cause for an arrest.

The "stand your ground" provision in Florida's Justifiable Use of Force statute only removes the duty to retreat. According to Zimmerman, Trayvon never presented him with a threat from which he could have retreated, so the removal of a duty to retreat is irrelevant. He never had the option. Retreat to avoid is moot after you've been hit in the face and knocked down, so the relevance of the SYG provision evaporates.

That brings it down to whether or not the prosecution can prove that he did not have grounds to reasonably believe that deadly force was necessary to prevent great bodily harm or imminent death. In other words, plain vanilla self-defense. What people are questioning is the adequacy of "reasonable belief" as a standard for the justifiable use of deadly force.

Unfortunately, however, and despite its potential for abuse, it's difficult to see what one could fairly replace it with.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/5/2012 9:26:08 AM >

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Stand Your Ground II - 6/5/2012 9:43:38 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Baxley is a gun graber who would rather see crime go up than give credit to people defending themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 120
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