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Zeta Male? - 6/3/2012 6:42:42 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		This is a copy from another area of discussion I frequent:

Okay this "zeta" term being applied to males had me do some research.

Zeta Male

There is not an absolute consensus on what a zeta male is other than they go their own way. They refuse societal pressures, and pressures from other individuals. That is pretty vague and can be applied to other types of people. The lone wolf that has been culled from the pack comes to mind. Seems kind of a lonely existence, offering the excuse of "I refuse to play the game" and just walking away. Sorry but humans do not live in a vacuum, and they are social creatures. If a type of human starts to "not play the game" then they will probably be defying the first order of survival, continuation of the species.

This seems at odds for one of the characteristics applied to the "zeta male" as they are supposed to be setting their own rules for their survival, but we cannot just step out of society. Maybe once we could, but someone would have to travel to very remote areas to step out of things.

They reject the traditional aspects of masculinity, and define it for themselves. That seems rather handy, being able to just set your own standards to the rest of society, all of it, western, alternative thinking, retro, etc. can be damned. No standard to hold yourself to, but your constantly morphing code based upon what you feel is best for you at the time.

Another goal is to deconstruct the normal gender roles. WHOAAAAA! What is this? Do away with the gender roles that has been part of humans for as long as we have been around? That seems like part of the feminist ideals there. So what are the differences her except the gender and what they are screaming "foul" about?

They view other men as being "stuck in a pit"? WTF is that? Seems like an excuse to me, and complete disregard for the individuality of other men to choose who they want to be. There lies the hypocrisy of this, just as many feminist have the same hypocrisy. They say they are for the deconstruction of something, and then through remarks of their own create a construct of how they believe things should be.

I will quote the last part of the article that I am referencing because it made me laugh.

quote:

And if anyone, man, woman, or child protests? Shut up, and get out of our fucking way. We are Zeta Males, and we aren’t going anywhere. You are.


The Gorean man says "Move me motherfucker, I am not going anywhere, and if you think you are strong enough to move me, then prove it." So what does the zeta male do then? Based upon the article, posts springing up around here, he should go his own way and walk around. That is perfectly okay with me. The zeta can stay on the edges, just out of range, out of my area of influence, and can make whatever noise they want to as why they do the things they do. As long as they do not fuck with my personal area of influence or an area I feel a duty to be involved in, they can do whatever they want.

Now if a zeta male rises to the challenge, are they not just being as males have always been, and will always be? Sure we have many males in today's society that are getting sick of many things, but instead of creating some area to offer excuses, they could instead reclaim what they want, and do things their way. There is no need for the extra category, except maybe as a bench mark for the males that are on their way back to being who the hell they should be. One thing I do not like about the zeta is the uncommitted attitude, which the abdication of a "duty of care" is the area males fucked up, and many continue to fuck up.

Yeah this is my opinion, and if a zeta does not like it. then step the fuck up and make your case. Prove your worth, or shut the fuck up.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 6:21:35 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		As one Zeta Male stated, One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women.

The womans journey has many directions. We, unlike man, have broken down many social structures.
I, for example, have the freedom to be who I am without shame. I have never been told to 'stand up and be a woman' and although I have spent half of my life as a provider, it was never taken for granted or expected that I should in fact provide anything. Now if I had been born a man, I would of been brought up with a much more limited identity. I would be an alpha male or a beta male (superior/inferior).
If, as a woman, I chose to be a submissive/slave, that would be widely accepted and embraced amongst like minded people. If I chose to be dominant or switch, that would also be cool, interesting and acceptable. If I was a man and portrayed myself as a submissive/slave, many of those even in this lifestyle would find that to be a weakness but if I took the path of dominant, I would be seen as strong and manly.

When my son was born I remember holding this tiny little being and thinking, 'poor soul. Your future holds so much responsibility'

Zeta male is just someone who makes choices beyond what is considered the norm.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 7:43:51 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

As one Zeta Male stated, One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women.



So there are similarities.

quote:


The womans journey has many directions. We, unlike man, have broken down many social structures.
I, for example, have the freedom to be who I am without shame. I have never been told to 'stand up and be a woman' and although I have spent half of my life as a provider, it was never taken for granted or expected that I should in fact provide anything. Now if I had been born a man, I would of been brought up with a much more limited identity. I would be an alpha male or a beta male (superior/inferior).


What you explaining is just social structure, and something that is fairly recent when compared to how long humans have been around. It also only describes a portion of the world, and not the entirety of it. You are doing the same thing, stating that men only have two options, and that they are determined by external pressures. That is not master morality, which is one of the cornerstones of Gorean philosophy. It also does not describe the myriad of variations even if you want to use two categories.

quote:


If, as a woman, I chose to be a submissive/slave, that would be widely accepted and embraced amongst like minded people. If I chose to be dominant or switch, that would also be cool, interesting and acceptable. If I was a man and portrayed myself as a submissive/slave, many of those even in this lifestyle would find that to be a weakness but if I took the path of dominant, I would be seen as strong and manly.


You say "amongst like minded people" which indicates a social group, that is defining something for themselves. There is no change really, only a difference in perception and expectations. So what makes this designation different?


[quotes]
When my son was born I remember holding this tiny little being and thinking, 'poor soul. Your future holds so much responsibility'

Zeta male is just someone who makes choices beyond what is considered the norm.


There are many people, through out the ages, that have made choices beyond what is considered the norm. It is not a new thing, so why the new term? From what I see written in the description of what a zeta male is, I see things that are not actually reflected in the supposed zeta males. Most seem to have had a bad marriage or bad run in with females, got treated as what they perceive as unjust due to the legal and social system, and have started crying about it. That is absolutely normal human behavior, so what is not normal about those response?

Here is a quote from one of the leaders of the zeta male movement:

"As I said... the first time. I've withdrawn my name from the Joust, I don't play the game anymore.
The next man who is accused of _______________ (insert vile crime against femininity) WON'T be me... because I avoid them. I don't offer to open doors for them, I don't stop to help them on the road, I don't give them rides, if one gets on an elevator I get off... and they can carry their own damn packages across the parking lot."

Sorry but that sounds more like someone that is butthurt, and decided to stomp their feet and walk away defeated.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 8:59:58 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So there are similarities.



Similarities of breaking free from indoctrination, yes.


quote:





What you explaining is just social structure, and something that is fairly recent when compared to how long humans have been around. It also only describes a portion of the world, and not the entirety of it. You are doing the same thing, stating that men only have two options, and that they are determined by external pressures. That is not master morality, which is one of the cornerstones of Gorean philosophy. It also does not describe the myriad of variations even if you want to use two categories.


Social structure has been around two million years and the very thing that has enhanced human survival and reproduction. When hungry, following the best hunter ensured our survival. Good followers survived to pass on their follower genes. The breeding of many followers ensured pack numbers were plentiful and this is why in today’s gene pool followship is a common feature in men and women.

I am certainly not stating that men only have two options. Social pressure often has the male species conforming to an expected role but if the male is brave enough to break down those social barriers, then good for him. Perhaps he can do that through a Gorean lifestyle? I wouldn't know.
quote:



There are many people, through out the ages, that have made choices beyond what is considered the norm. It is not a new thing, so why the new term? From what I see written in the description of what a zeta male is, I see things that are not actually reflected in the supposed zeta males. Most seem to have had a bad marriage or bad run in with females, got treated as what they perceive as unjust due to the legal and social system, and have started crying about it. That is absolutely normal human behavior, so what is not normal about those response?

Here is a quote from one of the leaders of the zeta male movement:

"As I said... the first time. I've withdrawn my name from the Joust, I don't play the game anymore.
The next man who is accused of _______________ (insert vile crime against femininity) WON'T be me... because I avoid them. I don't offer to open doors for them, I don't stop to help them on the road, I don't give them rides, if one gets on an elevator I get off... and they can carry their own damn packages across the parking lot."

Sorry but that sounds more like someone that is butthurt, and decided to stomp their feet and walk away defeated.


The person who wrote that is merely an angry fool who hasn’t quite grasped the meaning behind Zeta.
Its not about rejecting women. Its not even about rejecting feminism. What it does reject is the devaluation of men. Radical feminist groups don’t want guys to have fairness and equality. Men are rapists, criminals who manipulate women at every opportunity. From what I have learnt about Zeta, they reject those claims
Just like feminism, there will be some radical groups but amongst all the madness there is some sanity.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 11:51:59 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		This may sound good in theory, but in application it does not seem to be turning out too well. This is based upon engaging several within the "Zeta" movement in intellectual discourse. Instead they focus on the "woe is me" factor, which in my opinion makes them look pathetic.

Also, takes a lot more than a couple of decades to even touch Human Behavioral Evolution. Things as they are now I see as in a flux, it may move many different ways but the by-product of forcing "equality" without the benefit of merit to those that have not earned something, seems to be having negative impacts throughout society in the western world.

I found one person that seemed rather moderate and he admitted it was just a designation for males within a socio-political movement.

All the traits listed for a zeta male have been around for a long time, with the exception of "gender deconstruction". From a Gorean perspective having everyone the same is anathema.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The person who wrote that is merely an angry fool who hasn’t quite grasped the meaning behind Zeta.
Its not about rejecting women. Its not even about rejecting feminism. What it does reject is the devaluation of men. Radical feminist groups don’t want guys to have fairness and equality. Men are rapists, criminals who manipulate women at every opportunity. From what I have learnt about Zeta, they reject those claims
Just like feminism, there will be some radical groups but amongst all the madness there is some sanity.




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 1:07:24 PM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

This may sound good in theory, but in application it does not seem to be turning out too well. This is based upon engaging several within the "Zeta" movement in intellectual discourse. Instead they focus on the "woe is me" factor, which in my opinion makes them look pathetic.

Yes I agree and that’s a great shame but just like a man who flicks through a book written by John Norman and then claims himself to be a Gorean Master, some men who don’t have much to identify with, will latch on to the Zeta following
quote:


Also, takes a lot more than a couple of decades to even touch Human Behavioral Evolution. Things as they are now I see as in a flux, it may move many different ways but the by-product of forcing "equality" without the benefit of merit to those that have not earned something, seems to be having negative impacts throughout society in the western world.

Touché!
quote:


I found one person that seemed rather moderate and he admitted it was just a designation for males within a socio-political movement.
All the traits listed for a zeta male have been around for a long time, with the exception of "gender deconstruction". From a Gorean perspective having everyone the same is anathema.

Live well,
Orion


What I am seeing here, and I don’t mean this in an offensive way, is resentment.
You felt compelled enough to start a thread about this group of people because you feel bitter, indignant, aggrieved and even offended by them. If you resent another person’s lifestyle, opinions even, you are giving them an identity. That identity is going to be a misconception because you have already perceived that Zeta men are enemies.
What I was trying to say to you was, ‘Zeta’ for many is nothing more than a stolen identity with little meaning. Of course men with meaningless identities will pick up on labels like this. You only have to go on FL to see an abundance of groups specially put together for women haters. There’s no reasoning with people who live and thrive off collective human dysfunction! But they are not a good example on such an interesting subject.
Just out of interest, do you have any understanding about Zeta women?

I’m not one btw!!!


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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 2:32:51 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

As one Zeta Male stated, One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women.


Without feminism, you probably wouldn't even be writing on this forum. Just saying.

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/4/2012 3:37:04 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

What I am seeing here, and I don’t mean this in an offensive way, is resentment.
You felt compelled enough to start a thread about this group of people because you feel bitter, indignant, aggrieved and even offended by them. If you resent another person’s lifestyle, opinions even, you are giving them an identity. That identity is going to be a misconception because you have already perceived that Zeta men are enemies.


Well I detest victim mentality and that is what many of the zeta males portrayed in discussions. Do not mistake my confrontational and provocative posts, to be immersed in some type of vested emotions. At best it is irritating that there is hypocrisy and posturing for political agendas hidden among yet another cause, but that is human behavior and likely will always be.

Psshhtt, zeta males or whoever can do as they please, but I will comment and make judgments, just like most humans do. I will try intellectual discourse, but that does not always turn out so well. This area here has been one of the better Gorean venues for intellectual discourse with less flaming and trolling, than any I post in. That is why I posted here in addition to another discussion area. Have gotten about the same interest in the subject ;)

quote:


What I was trying to say to you was, ‘Zeta’ for many is nothing more than a stolen identity with little meaning. Of course men with meaningless identities will pick up on labels like this. You only have to go on FL to see an abundance of groups specially put together for women haters. There’s no reasoning with people who live and thrive off collective human dysfunction! But they are not a good example on such an interesting subject.
Just out of interest, do you have any understanding about Zeta women?



OMG, there is yet another classification for females, zeta? No I have not read anything about the zeta female, and what I read on zeta males did not mesh with the discussions I had with them, in open forums and private messages.

Live well,
Orion


_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MariaB)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 2:25:02 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

The Gorean man says "Move me motherfucker, I am not going anywhere, and if you think you are strong enough to move me, then prove it."


No. A childish bully does this. A Gorean man can be a bully but I don't think you refer to those Goreans in the Sagas so if the thinking Gorean has no need to "move you" then he will go around and avoid the confrontation. Some Goreans in the Sagas did do this for something they felt related to honor. If you approched their wagons they killed you. But our Tarl Cabot, our hero of the Sagas, did not do this. In fact, by example he teaches those who are trapped in such molds to break them.



quote:

So what does the zeta male do then? Based upon the article, posts springing up around here, he should go his own way and walk around.


The better question would be; "But what does he do if it benefits him to move you?" Exactly. He moves you. I'm sure many Zeta males spend more time in the gym than in the forum. I can relate.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 6/5/2012 2:26:30 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 5:17:37 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

The Gorean man says "Move me motherfucker, I am not going anywhere, and if you think you are strong enough to move me, then prove it."


No. A childish bully does this. A Gorean man can be a bully but I don't think you refer to those Goreans in the Sagas so if the thinking Gorean has no need to "move you" then he will go around and avoid the confrontation. Some Goreans in the Sagas did do this for something they felt related to honor. If you approched their wagons they killed you. But our Tarl Cabot, our hero of the Sagas, did not do this. In fact, by example he teaches those who are trapped in such molds to break them.


You still have reading comprehension issues. The portion you quote above ties into the comment of telling others to move. The portion about prove yourself, comes directly from the series concerning equality, if you are equal then prove it. Metaphor is just lost on you it seems.


quote:


quote:

So what does the zeta male do then? Based upon the article, posts springing up around here, he should go his own way and walk around.


The better question would be; "But what does he do if it benefits him to move you?" Exactly. He moves you. I'm sure many Zeta males spend more time in the gym than in the forum. I can relate.


So are you a zeta male? The ones I have engaged in discussion were about 1 of 3 that looked like they got some exercise or worked out, the other 2 were overweight. Not sure what that has to do with anything though.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 7:01:30 AM   
Brian762


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

The better question would be; "But what does he do if it benefits him to move you?" Exactly. He moves you. I'm sure many Zeta males spend more time in the gym than in the forum. I can relate.


What does how and where someone spends their time have anything to do with the topic being discussed?

I read the link that Orion posted at the top of the page and part of it disturbed me.

quote:

Especially when you see the alternative freedoms other people have. One of the few things feminism got right was the abundance of options that it gave to women. Now that men are starting to analyse all this more objectively, many are coming to a completely different view of their roles. When looking in comparison men have started to decide that how much life sucks as a man. Now, a growing number of men want options, too.


Not quite sure where these people are getting their information from, but life as a man does not suck in any way. I'm proud I was raised to be the provider, to be the one to make the hard choices and to have the strength to stand by those choices. I'm proud to have been raised to lead and guide my life and the life of my family in the direction of my choice.

IMHO there are still only 2 types of males, alpha's and beta's. Zeta males are just a self defined beta male.


< Message edited by Brian762 -- 6/5/2012 7:13:00 AM >

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:35:03 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
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quote:

What does how and where someone spends their time have anything to do with the topic being discussed?


I am certain hat Orion implied Zeta's are less manly than Goreans and would not attempt to move a Gorean who blocked his way even if there were no alternative. I beg to differ. Also, logic dictates that Goreans spending much of their time posting in forums and other websites have little time for gyms and might not be moved only because of their overweight rather than some claimed weakness in Zeta males. But that is my opinion of course.

_____________________________

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:37:56 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
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quote:

IMHO there are still only 2 types of males, alpha's and beta's. Zeta males are just a self defined beta male.


I agree with the first statement. I don't know about the second. What makes them beta males as a sterotype? Assuming there is a univeral definition for alpha and beta.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:41:29 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

You still have reading comprehension issues. The portion you quote above ties into the comment of telling others to move. The portion about prove yourself, comes directly from the series concerning equality, if you are equal then prove it. Metaphor is just lost on you it seems.


My apology. You are correct. I did not tie the two together.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:43:33 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

What does how and where someone spends their time have anything to do with the topic being discussed?


I am certain hat Orion implied Zeta's are less manly than Goreans and would not attempt to move a Gorean who blocked his way even if there were no alternative. I beg to differ. Also, logic dictates that Goreans spending much of their time posting in forums and other websites have little time for gyms and might not be moved only because of their overweight rather than some claimed weakness in Zeta males. But that is my opinion of course.

So, your 26 posts since June 1st vs. Orions 5 posts since June 1st proves exactly what?

_____________________________

yep

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:52:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Now I asked a question on what would they do. Based upon what I have read they would not accept the challenge since that would be how Alpha males act within a social arena, and they state they do not play that game. Now we could go with the other supposed defining characteristic of a zeta, and that is they make their rules up as they go for survival purposes, not allowing others to define their masculinity, so they may size up the person challenging, accept if they believed there was a reasonable chance of winning, or decline if they thought they would lose. They could also use other forms of conflict resolution, such as more verbal communication, like over a beer or something. You would think that two men could resolve things over a beer, and if not at the very least have a drink before they have a go at each other.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

What does how and where someone spends their time have anything to do with the topic being discussed?


I am certain hat Orion implied Zeta's are less manly than Goreans and would not attempt to move a Gorean who blocked his way even if there were no alternative. I beg to differ. Also, logic dictates that Goreans spending much of their time posting in forums and other websites have little time for gyms and might not be moved only because of their overweight rather than some claimed weakness in Zeta males. But that is my opinion of course.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Arturas)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 6:57:30 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

logic dictates that Goreans spending much of their time posting in forums and other websites have little time for gyms and might not be moved only because of their overweight rather than some claimed weakness in Zeta males.


So, your 26 posts since June 1st vs. Orions 5 posts since June 1st proves exactly what?


Logic dictates that he's fatter.

K.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/5/2012 10:44:01 PM   
JarlOlaf


Posts: 236
Joined: 5/15/2005
Status: offline 		Logic is overrated... I am old and feeble I am sure, but then again, I have probably forgotten more about how to cause grevious bodily injuries to young hard heads than most men ever learn...

Still, it is fun to watch someone yap at their betters like an ill bred mongrel.....

Move me, walk around me, dance a tango, who gives a rats ass.... from what I have read, a Zeta is just a cry baby that is sucking at the teat of lifes disappointments... crying "Live is not fair, so I don't want to play". Who cares really? If they chose to sit by the sidelines and watch with distain, commenting on how foolish we all are, well, words are just air, and their actions speak volumes to their lack of charecter.

Be a man or not, I do not care... your actions and attitudes do not define me....

just my two shiny metal thingies on the subject...

Olaf


_____________________________

I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes, Because celluloid heroes never feel any pain
And celluloid heroes never really die.

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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/6/2012 6:50:38 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5567
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Very very interesting post!

So I've done some mooching and googling, and thus far my impression (based on a far from rigorous process of research) is that the zeta male is upset by the evolution of gender roles, but rather than making a stand, prefers to slink off off and avoid the issue. It's a sort of passive-aggressive anti-feminist stance.

While I may strongly disagree with the position that some Goreans take on topics like Feminism and equality, at least they have the bollocks to stand up and have the debate.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Zeta Male? - 6/6/2012 8:08:53 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

What is interesting is the non-Gorean areas I have posted in, have responded in very similar ways. I recommend individual research/reading on this topic, and then maybe find some zeta male forums/discussion areas and see how they actually discuss things.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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