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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 4:42:13 AM   
Deliena


Posts: 623
Joined: 6/16/2007
From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		that's my point though, you can still love someone you don't even like. Be that romantic love at the end of a love affair or the love you have for a relative who has done something or stands for something you find repugnant. Or perhaps, it is something I consider myself capable of and you don't see yourself as being able to offer. If so fair play - everyone is different and knowing ourselves is valuable.

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 5:06:12 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliena

that's my point though, you can still love someone you don't even like. Be that romantic love at the end of a love affair or the love you have for a relative who has done something or stands for something you find repugnant. Or perhaps, it is something I consider myself capable of and you don't see yourself as being able to offer. If so fair play - everyone is different and knowing ourselves is valuable.


Yes, you can love someone you don't even like. However, as Thaz has pointed out, it is possible to have what you *think* is unconditional love for someone, and have that love erased by the person's reprehensible actions (like the Nazi Granny).

So you can have unconditional love for someone, until you don't. And that's what he means when he says it doesn't exist (excuse me for speaking for you Thaz, if I got this wrong, please let me know) -- you only have it because it has not *really* been tested. And for most people, it never will be tested. Nazi Grannies are rare !!

In case it's not clear, the idea of lowering someone's morals as a way to "test" for unconditional love is quite repugnant to me.

But, as in my morality questions, most people are never going to be in the situation where they are tested. I have. I have lived a long strange twisted life, and in my younger days was more than a bit of a wild one. So my ethics, which may not seem all that ethical to some, are my own. They don't spring from society's ideas of what is right and what is wrong. To my mind this means they are much more firmly entrenched.

Great discussion, BTW, I am enjoying it immensely !!




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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 5:16:09 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

So you can have unconditional love for someone, until you don't. And that's what he means when he says it doesn't exist (excuse me for speaking for you Thaz, if I got this wrong, please let me know) -- you only have it because it has not *really* been tested. And for most people, it never will be tested. Nazi Grannies are rare !!



No worries CP!

Or to put it even more simply :- There are no such things as Black and White, only shades of Grey.

And I hope none of us are as tested as these poor folks, one of whom only realised while watching Schindlers List that Ralph Finennes is playing his Grandad.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18120890


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:00:39 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline



Morals

1: A lesson, esp. one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
2: A person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.

So morality is subjective, "what is and is not acceptable for THEM". If a person performs an act, that does not violate their morals, that act is not necessarily "right". Morality may be subjective,and situational, but right and wrong are not. Sometime we may not know what consequences our actions will bring, whether the results will be good(right) or bad(wrong). In these cases we have only our morals to guide us. What if, despite our lofty morals, we act in such a way as to cause harm. Good intentions do not excuse bad results.

Morals are our guides, to doing right or wrong. Morals are fluid, but right and wrong are fixed. Our knowledge of right and wrong may be lacking, but the truth is always the truth.

"If somethings not right, it's wrong." (Bob Dylan)

"What is good, and what is not good, and do we need someone to tell us these things?" (Robert Pirsig)

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:18:48 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.

Friedrich Nietzsche, The Antichrist, section 2

For a very in depth discussion of good and evil I suggest his Beyond Good and Evil. Not the easiest read (for me, Nietzsche never is) but wondrously insightful none the less.

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RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:20:49 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		What I'm seeing here is that people are confusing feelings and actions. As any parent knows, you don't stop loving your kid when they fail math. You still love them, at the same time you ground them for not studying.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:22:54 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline 		Right and Wrong are defined by your personal or some larger groups Morality and are no more fixed.

The Aztecs believed that mass human sacrifice was nessacary for their continued existance and therefore was the right thing to do.

Modern Western Judeo-Christian centric society differes on that requirement.

I personaly think its wrong to kill an innocent animal for food or clothing but entirely right to kill some humans I consider evil. Soceity as large disagrees with me.

Right and Wrong are fluid.

(in reply to areallivehuman)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:30:07 AM   
MadameM4U


Posts: 62
Joined: 4/23/2012
Status: offline 		Your life is the sum total of the choices you make.

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:39:01 AM   
areallivehuman


Posts: 277
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		Just because "you", as a person or society, believe something to be right, does not make it so.

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:44:46 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameM4U

Your life is the sum total of the choices you make.


Well, of course it is. The question is, how do you make those choices? What criteria exactly do you use? Do you have your own personal code of ethics or do you rely on society, or religion, or whatever to form your moral decisions?

I am necessarily asking these question of you personally, MadameM4U, but to the forum in general. And again, they are questions that to really know yourself the individual should be able to answer, not to me, but to themselves.


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 6:47:16 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		But you speak as if right and wrong are absolutes. I agree with Thaz, they are not.

Saying they are and quoting Bob Dylan is not exactly support of your argument (much as I love Dylan, although the man *cannot* sing).



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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 7:33:04 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: areallivehuman

Just because "you", as a person or society, believe something to be right, does not make it so.


Agreed. However therefore Right is always subjective as you can only say "you" find it wrong. So we find the Aztecs were wrong. If they had beat the European invaders or the Nazi's had won WWII we'd be judged as wrong and evil in the history books. Such is life.

But just 'cos "We" have the arogance to declare ourselves RIGHT doesnt mean it will always be taken to be so. Womens Rights, Racial Segregation, Conscription and who knows Fossil Fuels, Banning Gay Marrige and Jeremy Kyle may join that list ....

(in reply to areallivehuman)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 7:33:22 AM   
amaidiamond


Posts: 1793
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Watford / London
Status: offline 		For me, Morals and Law do not always connect..

There are things that are legal I find morally abhorrant (hunting for sport as an example), and things that are illegal that I find morally fine (Being bruised in a bdsm scene for example)..

Regarding TPE, for ME, this is how it is:

quote:

M/s, TPE or ownership for me isn’t role play, it’s a role definition, a relationship style. It isn’t something you do with someone you don’t trust completely.



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Lead me not into temptation... I can find the way all by myself!

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 7:55:20 AM   
BeautyDebased


Posts: 96
Joined: 3/20/2009
From: My Masters Feet
Status: offline
quote:

There are things that are legal I find morally abhorrant (hunting for sport as an example)


I hate that too, then I'm an avid animal activist too, thankfully Master is also against animal cruelty, He's not as avid as me but for the most part yes, I was a vegetarian at one stage, still considering going back, Master is fine with it as long as I get iron....meaning eating a lot of mushrooms and such, thankfully I love them, even by themselves with a little soy sauce...omg now I'm hungry.



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-Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you-

MAT 7:6.

(in reply to amaidiamond)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:05:07 AM   
BeautyDebased


Posts: 96
Joined: 3/20/2009
From: My Masters Feet
Status: offline
quote:

That awkward moment when you dig a hole to hide the body and find another body


Couldn't find one so I made one instead, photo isn't the best >.>






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-Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you-

MAT 7:6.

(in reply to Thaz)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:05:16 AM   
amaidiamond


Posts: 1793
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Watford / London
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeautyDebased

quote:

There are things that are legal I find morally abhorrant (hunting for sport as an example)


I hate that too, then I'm an avid animal activist too, thankfully Master is also against animal cruelty, He's not as avid as me but for the most part yes, I was a vegetarian at one stage, still considering going back, Master is fine with it as long as I get iron....meaning eating a lot of mushrooms and such, thankfully I love them, even by themselves with a little soy sauce...omg now I'm hungry.




I have been debating going veggie, I already go for as cruelty free as possible...

I also see a HUGE difference between hunting for food and hunting for sport - one in my mind is survival the other well, isn't

my Owner likes animals but is not like me in that aspect but he is happy to go along with my choices on things like products because he doesnt care what shampoo he has as long as it does his hair

So i get to make sure everything is non animal tested (animal cosmetic testing - another major hate)


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Lead me not into temptation... I can find the way all by myself!

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:06:18 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

For me, Morals and Law do not always connect..



As has been previously said. Morality and the law are distant kin at best.

Law is made by our elected proxies according to what they think is Moral, what they _think_ the populace want, what they think is best, what they think they can achieve, what they think will sound good on the news, what they think will get them re-elected, what the special intrest lobbiest who paid for the _really good lunch_ wants it to be and what the party tells them to. In no particular order. Democracy sucks. Just less than any other system.

(in reply to amaidiamond)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:11:44 AM   
Thaz


Posts: 617
Joined: 4/28/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

I have been debating going veggie, I already go for as cruelty free as possible...

I also see a HUGE difference between hunting for food and hunting for sport - one in my mind is survival the other well, isn't

my Owner likes animals but is not like me in that aspect but he is happy to go along with my choices on things like products because he doesnt care what shampoo he has as long as it does his hair

So i get to make sure everything is non animal tested (animal cosmetic testing - another major hate)



If its got a pulse its going to have to beg me to eat it........

(in reply to amaidiamond)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:16:03 AM   
BeautyDebased


Posts: 96
Joined: 3/20/2009
From: My Masters Feet
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeautyDebased

quote:

There are things that are legal I find morally abhorrant (hunting for sport as an example)


I hate that too, then I'm an avid animal activist too, thankfully Master is also against animal cruelty, He's not as avid as me but for the most part yes, I was a vegetarian at one stage, still considering going back, Master is fine with it as long as I get iron....meaning eating a lot of mushrooms and such, thankfully I love them, even by themselves with a little soy sauce...omg now I'm hungry.




I have been debating going veggie, I already go for as cruelty free as possible...

I also see a HUGE difference between hunting for food and hunting for sport - one in my mind is survival the other well, isn't

my Owner likes animals but is not like me in that aspect but he is happy to go along with my choices on things like products because he doesnt care what shampoo he has as long as it does his hair

So i get to make sure everything is non animal tested (animal cosmetic testing - another major hate)




Seems like were about the same in that regard,

With our Masters, which is fortunate because some just don't care, no matter how much it hurts you, He puts my feelings into consideration too and while He may tease me on occasion He would not hurt an animal just for the sake of it, some seem to think that makes them more of a man...not sure how, when man or people in general and far more technologically advanced the animal has no chance, what I would find a good sport is witnessing such a person in one on one combat with a wild animal, no weapons, then we will see what the superior animal is ;).

_____________________________

-Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you-

MAT 7:6.

(in reply to amaidiamond)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: -=Morals & limits in ownership, M/s, TPE – where'... - 6/9/2012 8:19:10 AM   
amaidiamond


Posts: 1793
Joined: 2/6/2006
From: Watford / London
Status: offline 		Yep I had one Dom who didn't care...

In a way it was worse because he didn't care either way, so when he insisted on buying animal tested products it stung more... was not with him for long at all

My Owner is not all that fussed about testing etc, but as long as the brand i buy works he lets me get on with it...

And I have converted him to a few yummy products :D

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation... I can find the way all by myself!

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Profile   Post #: 60
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