Spanking and Mental Illness? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Health and Safety



Message

hlen5 -> Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/2/2012 8:32:14 PM)

Wasn't sure where to post this -




http://shine.yahoo.com/team-mom/spanking-linked-mental-illness-says-study-175900352.html

Opinions, anyone?



littlewonder -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/2/2012 9:12:37 PM)

I'm ok with spanking when the punishment fits the crime. While I didn't spank my daughter all the time, when she did some things that I felt she needed a strong lesson about, yeah, I spanked her like when she decided to stick a fork in an outlet or when she decided to intentionally jump on another school bus when she was in first grade and had even the police searching for her. That day she got a lot more than a spanking and it deserved.

Ya know, she's a healthy, happy, responsible adult now so apparently it didn't harm her in any way.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 1:02:37 AM)

Simply not agreeing with the study at all.  Different children respond to different types of consequences.  While it is certainly common these days to try to tag every kid and even adult with some mental illness of some sort, I simply can't buy into the idea that spanking is so often the cause.  Especially, when they say they made the connection in only 7% of what was it?  Thirty four THOUSAND subjects?  Even if I am remember wrong and it was 3400, that isn't a high enough percentage to make a correlation.



DarkSteven -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 3:11:30 AM)

I skimmed through the full article. It's crap. Some excerpts (excerpts in italics and my comments in normal text)

physical punishment (having something thrown at them or being pushed, grabbed, shoved, slapped, or spanked) Throwing something at a child indicates complete lack of control and I would consider that abuse. Lumping that in with spanking is IMO wrong.

physical punishment and child maltreatment are not separate and unrelated dichotomies but rather varying degrees of physical force used on children found along a continuum of increasing severity ranging from no physical acts to severe child maltreatment This indicates the authors' bias. To state that abuse and punishment differ ONLY in degree of force and not in things such as the emotional state of the spanker is IMO wrong and shows that the authors have either no clue or else strong bias.

Emotional abuse was defined as the following acts occurring fairly often or very often: being sworn at or insulted, threatening to have something thrown at the respondent, or any other act that made the respondent afraid. Too broad. Any child should be afraid of any punishment session, even if it only consists of a scolding. To claim that a scolding constitutes emotional abuse is bullshit.

Emotional neglect was defined as not being in a close-knit family or having a family member make the respondent feel special, provide strength or support, or want them to succeed. I'm a liberal, end even I think this is liberal bullshit. The data was obtained by having adults fill out questionnaires about their childhoods, and this definition says more about the emotional state of the respondent than it does about his or her childhood.

Family history of dysfunction included whether a parent or other adult in the household had 1 or more of the following: (1) had a problem with alcohol or drugs; (2) went to jail or prison; (3) was treated or hospitalized for a mental illness; (4) attempted suicide; and/or (5) died by suicide. Too confining. Plenty of families that I would consider dysfunctional never had such severe indicators.

The prevalence of harsh physical punishment alone without experiencing more severe child maltreatment was 5.9%. And this is a stellar example of bad analysis. The article previously mentioned offhand that about 50% of modern households spank. Combine that statistic with this one, and we have 50% of households do not spank, 3% spank with no abuse (the 6% cited multiplied by the 50% that do spank), and 47% of families that spank and are abusive. The authors are making a claim that 47% of US households are abusive. With no explanation or even notice of the claim.

Increases in education level and income level were both associated with increased odds of harsh physical punishment. The authors referred to this as "surprising" and then moved on.

A couple of other things that were buried in the article and have a major impact:

1. The results are from questionnaires, in which respondents gave their recollections regarding their childhoods. Obvious bias. I'm not sure how that could be overcome with more objective methods, but the bias should have been mentioned.
2. The data was gathered in 2004 and 2005. (No explanation was given for why such old data was used.) It involved adults (no ages given) recollecting their childhoods. Assuming that the average respondent age was 40 (because the article did not specify), then the respondents would have been describing events 30 years or so previous, in 1974 and 1975, which is hardly current and reflective of present day culture. In other words, they don't apply. Note also that the results were not broken out by respondent age or when the children were raised, which should have been a very useful independent variable.

Note that once the analysis technique was set up, that using different data sets would not have been hard. The age of the data set used makes me suspicious that the authors used several data sets and chose the one that supported their own biases best.

My take is that the respondents' bias governed the results. Note that the more educated/high earning respondents reported higher levels of spanking. I suspect that they may have simply felt it anomalous and reported it more than less educated and lower earners. If so, this is an inherent bias of the technique and should have been a tipoff that the whole damn thing was invalid.

Disclaimer: I have no experience in the field of social studies. I DO have considerable experience in data analysis, and I know bad analysis when I see it.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 3:58:00 AM)

Great posting Steven, you saved me having to read the whole article, which most obviously would have been a waste of my time.

Now, I *do* have some background in research, and one of the first things they teach you in ANY science that relies on a great deal of data collection is to know how to analyze your data. It also tends to be quite apparent when the "researcher" has a definite bias for or against their topic.


But as for the spanking topic, I am against using physical punishment to correct a child, except in very specific and rare instances. When you have a hyperactive toddler continually trying to run out into the street, for instance, a little push push on his bottom might get his attention. I am not talking beat the hell out of him. I am talking get his attention.

There are many ways other than spanking to correct older children. In raising my own, I learned early on that kids (my kids at least) WANT to do the right thing, when they screw up, they either didn't know better, used poor judgement, or something along those lines.

So that means they need more education. Spanking someone for ignorance is ignorant itself. And spanking some one for hitting their brother, oh boy, what can I say. Parents really think it's a good idea to hit their kid to teach them not to hit someone else?

There were a few rare instances when I thought one of my kids was being willfully disobedient, and they got a smack on the bottom. But again, this was to get their (mental) attention as it was so rare they realized I was *serious.*

Here in the US we desperate need to train people before they become parents. I have seen far too many bad ones. JMO




littlewonder -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 4:02:02 PM)

quote:

There were a few rare instances when I thought one of my kids was being willfully disobedient, and they got a smack on the bottom. But again, this was to get their (mental) attention as it was so rare they realized I was *serious.*


Exactly. I never spanked my daughter all the time but on the occasions where I felt I needed to get her attention since she never really took me serious most times. And during those few times it did the job, along with a grounding and having certain things taken away and having to write an apology to the school and apologize to the policeman and her grandfather. lol. Yeah, she never did that again lol.



DarkSteven -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 4:26:39 PM)

The Metro News carried an account of this horrible analysis: Metro News article



kalikshama -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 4:30:13 PM)

I appreciate the analysis Steven.



epiphiny43 -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 5:35:55 PM)

Successful behavior modification for All organisms with functional nervous system (This includes US children.), universally is based on teaching successful adaptions and behavior. European civilization parents (See above) are desperate in the face of the overwhelming amount and reach of the studies to continue to validate hitting and punishment. Probably because most were raised in families with no other conscious alternative techniques for more extreme situations. If the hollowness of the method needs any more evidence, look at the incarceration rate and recidivism of the US legal system. About the worst in history of Mankind and far beyond any Totalitarian system baring maybe Cambodia during the Killing Fields era?
Applied Behavior Analysis is the academic term for the general theory based on the observation all through the fields of intelligent behavior that nervous systems repeat successful actions. Recent studies show clearly that young children to the ages of 8 to 11 are Not affected by failure, but by success, or none of us would ever have learned to walk or talk, process with huge failure before significant success.
The European/Western cultures may not be the worst child punishers, but they are in the running. Traditional non-paternalist cultures are more likely to actually value the children more than their immediate behavior. Polynesians are one example. Journalists of the period commented that for many Hawaiians during the contact period, the greatest cognitive dissonance the White Man caused was the first time they saw a child struck. An incomprehensible action in pre-contact Hawaiian culture, where children were the most valued of all possessions and relationships. The social cohesiveness and family bonds in that culture are legendary. And largely absent in the thoroughly Christianized (Protestant child hitters) remnants of the culture, away from the few intact families still with bonds to traditional lands and behavior.
The best example of how far Western society has fallen from true respect and love for it's children is in a surviving culture on one of the many Polynesian islands. Children aren't just 'not punished', they aren't reprimanded publicly or directly. With some undesirable behavior, later one adult will discuss the general situation and recommended alternative actions In the Hearing of the Child! Being careful not to humiliate or attack a fragile psyche but transmit family and village expectations in positive terms. The observation that the group has little mental illness just Might be connected?
If animal trainers with serious educations have fully embraced Applied Behavior Analysis and learned how to apply the knowledge, maybe parents can too? The largest downside of punishment is seen in the fragile bonds with training prey animals such as birds. ONE punishment can fatally damage a relationship for life. FAMILY doesn't hurt family, in almost all species, just humans?
If you can't figure out how to communicate with your children without hitting them, Try a bit more?? It is a continuing test of creativity, love and busting old patterns learned everywhere while growing up American. Get some education? Step back take a deep breath and balance this moment's agenda with how they understand 'family' for the rest of their life? Real teaching is figuring out the real lessons you teach, not just the ones you have in your mind while acting out old patterns you haven't thought through Ever. If it is all too hard, Give them away to someone that loves them 24 hours a day? Notice how many kids have a better relationship with grandparents who instruct, not punish? Less ego in the relationship than parents and a lot more patience. An amazing number of cultures use aunts, uncles and grandparents for teaching and socialization in recognition of how parental ego interferes with open awareness of how communication is working. If your kids never even really know their elder relative and are damaged from the lack, comfort yourself on the better income the mobility of nuclear families assists.
Nobody says conscious acculturation and instruction in successful life skills for kids is easy. It probably is the greatest challenge a human can face. It is how we influence our children and pass on whatever we have learned in life to our families and culture. Much of our 'conventional wisdom' on child raising is the more emotionally loaded behavior we witnessed in young life before we questioned parental behavior. We repeat this unexamined learning more often than later intellectual concepts the more emotional stress we feel in the situation we feel and fewer positive alternatives we have on hand. Trying to teach life by specific discipline and lessons also ignores the most basic of observations of how kids learn. They Don't hear what you say, they see what you Do.
Hitting mostly teaches kids that big people get what they want from little people with violence when non-violence doesn't work. Any dispute on this is by people who are blocking out all their memories of early and middle school. Today's 'news' outlined a study that found over half of adolescents interviewed had experienced an uncontrollable violent temper behavior towards someone else. This doesn't occur in a vacuum. From Judge Judy and action hero movies to parental discipline, the lessons are everywhere that disrespect and violence, emotional and physical, are justified for personal or ideological reasons. Not the most promising thing to realize about our selves as technology gives fewer and fewer people the powers to damage larger numbers and areas of the planet?



LafayetteLady -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/3/2012 11:34:44 PM)

Dude,

Paragraphs are your friend.  I won't even attempt to read that wall o text.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 12:53:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Dude,

Paragraphs are your friend.  I won't even attempt to read that wall o text.



I concur, and it's sad as it's a subject that interests me.



crazyml -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 1:54:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: epiphiny43

Successful behavior modification for All organisms with functional nervous system (This includes US children.), universally is based on teaching successful adaptions and behavior. European civilization parents (See above) are desperate in the face of the overwhelming amount and reach of the studies to continue to validate hitting and punishment. Probably because most were raised in families with no other conscious alternative techniques for more extreme situations. If the hollowness of the method needs any more evidence, look at the incarceration rate and recidivism of the US legal system. About the worst in history of Mankind and far beyond any Totalitarian system baring maybe Cambodia during the Killing Fields era?


I would be fascinated if you could actually demonstrate a link between spanking and incarceration rates. I doubt you can though. So this implied correlation is absurd. If you pursued it, you could of course end by concluding that when people steal it's "our failure" and that we shouldn't dream of sending these people to prison.

I would respectfully submit that it's all a teensy bit more complex than you appear to think.

As it happens, I think prison is a pretty bad response to many crimes, and that alternatives like properly managed community restitution could go a very long way to addressing minor crimes and potentially prevent young people going on to more serious crimes.

But there will always be some crimes for which prison is the best option. And I am open to the possibility that there will be some behaviours in children for which a spanking is the best option.

quote:





Applied Behavior Analysis is the academic term for the general theory based on the observation all through the fields of intelligent behavior that nervous systems repeat successful actions. Recent studies show clearly that young children to the ages of 8 to 11 are Not affected by failure, but by success, or none of us would ever have learned to walk or talk, process with huge failure before significant success.


Can I, and I say this with the deepest respect, ask you to avoid writing in this pseudo-academic style, you're clearly not an academic (evidenced by the fact that your attempt to write like one tends to render your prose incomprehensible).

As for these studies you refer to - footnotes please, you're relying on a lot of "studies" rather than the weight of your own experience so please be good enough to mention a couple of specific studies.

I have a feeling that you're falling into the shocking error of buying into the "there is no failure, only 'deferred-success'" which, if it persists, will be the fucking doom of western civilisation.

You cannot bring up a healthy human without exposing them both to success (and rewarding them for it) and to failure (and having them face the consequences of it). The one-sided approach you seem to be advocating is silly nonsense.

quote:




The European/Western cultures may not be the worst child punishers, but they are in the running. Traditional non-paternalist cultures are more likely to actually value the children more than their immediate behavior. Polynesians are one example. Journalists of the period commented that for many Hawaiians during the contact period, the greatest cognitive dissonance the White Man caused was the first time they saw a child struck.

An incomprehensible action in pre-contact Hawaiian culture, where children were the most valued of all possessions and relationships. The social cohesiveness and family bonds in that culture are legendary. And largely absent in the thoroughly Christianized (Protestant child hitters) remnants of the culture, away from the few intact families still with bonds to traditional lands and behavior.

The best example of how far Western society has fallen from true respect and love for it's children is in a surviving culture on one of the many Polynesian islands. Children aren't just 'not punished', they aren't reprimanded publicly or directly. With some undesirable behavior, later one adult will discuss the general situation and recommended alternative actions In the Hearing of the Child! Being careful not to humiliate or attack a fragile psyche but transmit family and village expectations in positive terms. The observation that the group has little mental illness just Might be connected?


Love and respect the Hawaiian culture as I do... let's pause a moment and compare the success of non-spanking cultures with spanking cultures. Oh fuck me! Now there's a correlation... The judeo-christian culture of the 19th century (The old "spare the rod, spoil the child" culture) brought the greatest transformation in society, in the shortest amount of time, that the world has ever seen.

Meanwhile, the non-spanking cultures were mooching around, without the wheel, without steam, and without any hope of expanding and thriving.

quote:




If animal trainers with serious educations have fully embraced Applied Behavior Analysis and learned how to apply the knowledge, maybe parents can too? The largest downside of punishment is seen in the fragile bonds with training prey animals such as birds. ONE punishment can fatally damage a relationship for life.



Errm... animal trainers use a compassionate balance between physical intervention and praise-based training.

quote:




FAMILY doesn't hurt family, in almost all species, just humans?



Can we set aside species that are pretty fucking far removed from humans in terms of intelligence, social complexity etc?

I mean... much as you might argue that the absence of spanking within the starfish community has a bearing on this debate, it doesn't.

Let's look at some of the smarter animals - Wolves, Primates.

Lots and lots and lots of physical chastisement in those species.

quote:



If you can't figure out how to communicate with your children without hitting them, Try a bit more?? It is a continuing test of creativity, love and busting old patterns learned everywhere while growing up American. Get some education? Step back take a deep breath and balance this moment's agenda with how they understand 'family' for the rest of their life? Real teaching is figuring out the real lessons you teach, not just the ones you have in your mind while acting out old patterns you haven't thought through Ever. If it is all too hard, Give them away to someone that loves them 24 hours a day?


So here's the real fucking kicker. You are trying to create a binary argument - People that never spank vs that people that always spank. That's a really silly argument that leaves out a huge number of people in the middle.

Yes, some people are terribly lacking in parenting skills. There are those fuckwitted idiots who think their psychopathic, violent little scumbag of a child is a delicate flower, who needs to be reasoned with and nurtured. And there are some complete tosspots who think that a slap should be the default (or only) form of behaviour correction.

Can you see how both extremes are utterly fucked up?


quote:




Notice how many kids have a better relationship with grandparents who instruct, not punish? Less ego in the relationship than parents and a lot more patience.


There are soooooo many holes in this point that I don't have the time to address them all.

Firstly, I can point to at least two pairs of grandparents who despair of the liberal approach to child-rearing taken by their children.
And in both cases, I'm inclined to agree with the grandparents.

quote:





An amazing number of cultures use aunts, uncles and grandparents for teaching and socialization in recognition of how parental ego interferes with open awareness of how communication is working. If your kids never even really know their elder relative and are damaged from the lack, comfort yourself on the better income the mobility of nuclear families assists.


I have no clue what you intend by this - it appears to be complete gibberish to me.

quote:




Nobody says conscious acculturation and instruction in successful life skills for kids is easy. It probably is the greatest challenge a human can face. It is how we influence our children and pass on whatever we have learned in life to our families and culture. Much of our 'conventional wisdom' on child raising is the more emotionally loaded behavior we witnessed in young life before we questioned parental behavior. We repeat this unexamined learning more often than later intellectual concepts the more emotional stress we feel in the situation we feel and fewer positive alternatives we have on hand.


Speak for yourself! I've taken my child rearing responsibilities extremely carefully, and I've examined all of the conventional wisdom, as well as my experiences.

quote:




Trying to teach life by specific discipline and lessons also ignores the most basic of observations of how kids learn. They Don't hear what you say, they see what you Do.
Hitting mostly teaches kids that big people get what they want from little people with violence when non-violence doesn't work.


Again... this is a gross gross generalisation, really unworthy of comment. Your choice of the words "violence" and "hitting" is emotive - Change it to chastisement and you can see how the sentence reads then.

quote:


Any dispute on this is by people who are blocking out all their memories of early and middle school.


What the fuck? You're my shrink now? How dare you make such a presumption.

I have a very clear recollection of my early and middle school experiences, thank-you very much.

I was caned on 4 occasions.

I fucking deserved it every time, and it did me no end of good.

quote:




Today's 'news' outlined a study that found over half of adolescents interviewed had experienced an uncontrollable violent temper behavior towards someone else.


What the fuck? This is news? On what fucking planet is the idea that half of adolescents have experienced a violent loss of control news?

Jesus fucking christ - Losing it the whole fucking point of being an adolescent.

quote:


This doesn't occur in a vacuum. From Judge Judy and action hero movies to parental discipline, the lessons are everywhere that disrespect and violence, emotional and physical, are justified for personal or ideological reasons. Not the most promising thing to realize about our selves as technology gives fewer and fewer people the powers to damage larger numbers and areas of the planet?


Well I beg to differ.

I would argue that the reason that each successive generation is becoming more decadent, and more lacking in self control is due in large measure to the lilly-livered, "no such thing as failure" bullshit that you seem to be pimping in your post.

If more children learned that their behaviour had consequences (both positive and negative) we would be in better shape now.

Yes, there are many feckless parents out there, and it's a shame for their children. I'd go so far as to say that feckless parenting is a form of child abuse. But I'm not prepared to buy into the nonsense that bad parenting is only associated with parents that spank too much - it's equally down to those parents that fail to provide boundaries and discipline.

So... how about me?

I've got two fantastic boys, 14 and 10. I'm very lucky, they're respectful, honest, thoughtful lads.

The older boy has been spanked by me on three occasions in his life. All three where when he was under 3 years old, and all of them were very light slaps on his thighs (and all of them related to him being in danger).

The younger boy has never been spanked.

Both boys know that their actions have consequences, and the lines that I draw are crystal clear. I praise them when they do the right thing, I counsel them when they make a poor choice, and there are consequences when they do something wrong.

These consequences fit the crime. If they break something, they fix it (I'm happy to help them fix it - but they get to spend the time), if they drop litter they get to go litter picking. Sure, grounding, removal of tv privileges, being sent to bed etc are all there in the kit bag. And so is spanking.

They both know, though, that there is a line. A clear line. And that if they were to cross the line I would certainly spank them. They both know that I would happily face the legal consequences if necessary.

I've been described as a "victorian parent" on occasion - Because one glance from me will stop them in their tracks. I'm also proud of the friendship I share with them, the fun we have, and (particularly) the words from other parents when they say "I love having your boys around, they're a pleasure to be with".

So don't you dare tell me that it's wrong for me to spank my children.



GreedyTop -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 2:28:01 AM)

*applauds MLs post*



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 3:55:38 AM)

Not only do I applaud ML's post, I am in awe of his ability to plow through a wall of very difficult and convoluted text. I just didn't have the patience.



DarkSteven -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 5:45:32 AM)

epiphiny43, your post seems to be not against just spanking, but against the entire concept of disciplining children. There're a lot of folks, myself included, that believe that telling a child "No" when they misbehave is vital, regardless of the form of the No.

Please note that the original article addressed spanking and physical punishment only, not addressing whether correction was necessary, just the form of it.



kitkat105 -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 6:04:42 AM)

I'm not a parent, but honestly I think there are too many other contributing factors that influence developing a mental illness. I was spanked as a child, and I'm glad I was because not only did it reinforce right from wrong, but I gained a very health respect for the adults in my family. Any mental illness I suffer is caused from genetic and external factors.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 8:16:45 AM)

quote:

honestly I think there are too many other contributing factors that influence developing a mental illness.


It's that old question, nature or nurture. If you talk to just about anyone in the social services, and by that I mean everyone from doctors, nurses, therapists, counselors, the police, etc, they will tell you nurture is very important. They have seen kids that did not have proper parenting, and guess what? They didn't turn out well.

But they will also tell you about some kid who's parents gave them nothing, who from day one shone like a star in the night. They KNEW that kid was going to overcome their beginnings and do great, and they did.

Sadly, they will also tell you about the kid from the great home, great parents, every advantage, but the kid was a bad egg (up someone's ass too long?) and they got into trouble, repeatedly, and eventually became a career criminal.


Regrettable, humans currently understand very little about personality and how it is formed; we understand even less about mental illness.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 11:17:23 AM)

Yay to ML for that break down.

My opinion is the folks I know who grew up getting whippings, when needed, are all great, responsible adults today, and none the worse for wear. Now, some of them, my self included, are a bit nuts, but hell, who aint?

Many children need just a look or a stern word. Some need a spanking. I believe using whatever works best for your child.

That said, since spankings went out of fashion, the kids have lost much respect for everything. It could be coincidence, it may just be change that can not be stopped, but, I personally think that more spankings could solve more problems than they would create.

Of course, I also believe that fear of getting in trouble is a good thing for children, and that we worry too much about hurting their self esteem.



GreedyTop -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 11:24:47 AM)

I think there are quite a few kids that could have used a firm swat on the ass and never got one who would have benefited greatly if they had.



hlen5 -> RE: Spanking and Mental Illness? (7/4/2012 1:49:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

..............But they will also tell you about some kid who's parents gave them nothing, who from day one shone like a star in the night. They KNEW that kid was going to overcome their beginnings and do great, and they did.

Sadly, they will also tell you about the kid from the great home, great parents, every advantage, but the kid was a bad egg (up someone's ass too long?) and they got into trouble, repeatedly, and eventually became a career criminal.


Regrettable, humans currently understand very little about personality and how it is formed; we understand even less about mental illness.




Your first paragraph reminded me of 2 authors, Gavin DeBecker (The Gift of Fear) and Dave P-something (A Boy Called It). DeBecker evaluates various risk in all relationships. His quote I remember is something like "If you don't want your kids to kill you, love them (not verbatim)".

Dave P(elson?) asserts that all it may take is ONE positive role model to turn a kid around in spite of the shit parenting they recieve. The fact that Dave didn't turn into a matricidal maniac is incredible.

[sm=rofl.gif] Lolololololol!! [sm=rofl.gif]



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875