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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/14/2012 11:43:43 AM   
Moonhead


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The catholic response to the enlightenment is a pretty fair example, I'd have said.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/14/2012 1:27:12 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The catholic response to the enlightenment is a pretty fair example, I'd have said.


They thought to manage it.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/14/2012 2:17:41 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The catholic response to the enlightenment is a pretty fair example, I'd have said.


They thought to manage it.


That's one way to fantasize about it.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/14/2012 3:28:06 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The catholic response to the enlightenment is a pretty fair example, I'd have said.


They thought to manage it.


That's one way to fantasize about it.


I do not feel that anything has fundamentally changed and the names of the actors are unimportant.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 5:33:38 AM   
BenevolentM


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The Internet has become an intellectual ghetto. With the rise of the Internet sadly we have, in some respects, gone backwards. What is my take on it? When people surround themselves with their own kind, the result is everything gets filtered through the same filter. If the filter contains a bias, you are going to get garbage in, garbage out. This is what happens when everything is decided politically. When you are overly concerned with what your peers think, don't call yourself rich chocolate. Why? Because when you do that you're just plain vanilla.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 5:48:14 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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I think there is quite a move on the part of Atheists currently to "manage it" when it comes to anyone else believing in a deity, at least that's one way they fantasize about it as well.

So often the traits one person detests so much in another seep right in, take hold and express in the opposer's psyche. And perhaps they will still believe they are "managing it" as they feed all the monotheists to the lions literally as they most often already do metaphorically.

Since the existence of a deity cannot be proven or disproved and how, historically, theistic cultures have persecuted unbelievers, the pendulum is destined to swing back and forth endlessly or at least seemingly so. Stalin was no less zealous in his persecutions than the Inquisition.

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 5:51:15 AM   
BenevolentM


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The first time I heard the expression intellectual ghetto was in an interview with Bill Moyers. I went looking up more information on the topic using Google. I couldn't find what I was looking for.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:01:33 AM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I think there is quite a move on the part of Atheists currently to "manage it" when it comes to anyone else believing in a deity, at least that's one way they fantasize about it as well.

So often the traits one person detests so much in another seep right in, take hold and express in the opposer's psyche. And perhaps they will still believe they are "managing it" as they feed all the monotheists to the lions literally as they most often already do metaphorically.

Since the existence of a deity cannot be proven or disproved and how, historically, theistic cultures have persecuted unbelievers, the pendulum is destined to swing back and forth endlessly or at least seemingly so. Stalin was no less zealous in his persecutions than the Inquisition.

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


As I see it the root of all evil isn't religion. It's politics. As I see it the Atheists have an agenda and that is why they are unwilling to examine the role of politics in history. They see politics as the means to achieve their goals. As I see it is their substitute for religion. Consider what James Randi brought to the attention to the audience in the "James Randi: Sleep of Reason" video, We make assumptions. The assumptions give us a bias and the bias gives us a blind spot. A magician can use these blind spots to his or her advantage, but what a magician does is honest. Not everyone, however, is honest.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:02:21 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The catholic response to the enlightenment is a pretty fair example, I'd have said.


They thought to manage it.


Really? In what way? Catholicism was irrelevant to the Enlightenment. And what was the dark side of the Enlightenment? That new thought and printing presses challenged the authority of princes and priests?

I thought Randi was a bit boring and full of himself although his message about false assumptions is a good one. As always, Dr Tyson is a joy for the mind. I take his point seriously about the danger fundy religion poses to science in the USA.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:09:08 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The Internet has become an intellectual ghetto. With the rise of the Internet sadly we have, in some respects, gone backwards. What is my take on it? When people surround themselves with their own kind, the result is everything gets filtered through the same filter. If the filter contains a bias, you are going to get garbage in, garbage out. This is what happens when everything is decided politically. When you are overly concerned with what your peers think, don't call yourself rich chocolate. Why? Because when you do that you're just plain vanilla.

What nonsense. What intellectual paradise existed before?

All that's changed is that more people, who weren't posting before, are posting, increasing the quantity of stuff. But the older stuff is still there, and a wealth of valuable material old and new available for the price of a search.


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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:11:07 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I think there is quite a move on the part of Atheists currently to "manage it" when it comes to anyone else believing in a deity, at least that's one way they fantasize about it as well.

So often the traits one person detests so much in another seep right in, take hold and express in the opposer's psyche. And perhaps they will still believe they are "managing it" as they feed all the monotheists to the lions literally as they most often already do metaphorically.

Since the existence of a deity cannot be proven or disproved and how, historically, theistic cultures have persecuted unbelievers, the pendulum is destined to swing back and forth endlessly or at least seemingly so. Stalin was no less zealous in his persecutions than the Inquisition.

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


It is becoming a boring carnard to equate current atheists to Stalin. There is no attempt by the 'new atheism' to use politics for any means. The glaring contradiction is that currently evangelicals are using politics from school board elections thru State houses and Congress to impose their beliefs and values on the rest of us.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:13:48 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I think there is quite a move on the part of Atheists currently to "manage it" when it comes to anyone else believing in a deity, at least that's one way they fantasize about it as well.

So often the traits one person detests so much in another seep right in, take hold and express in the opposer's psyche. And perhaps they will still believe they are "managing it" as they feed all the monotheists to the lions literally as they most often already do metaphorically.

Since the existence of a deity cannot be proven or disproved and how, historically, theistic cultures have persecuted unbelievers, the pendulum is destined to swing back and forth endlessly or at least seemingly so. Stalin was no less zealous in his persecutions than the Inquisition.

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


As I see it the root of all evil isn't religion. It's politics. As I see it the Atheists have an agenda and that is why they are unwilling to examine the role of politics in history. They see politics as the means to achieve their goals. As I see it is their substitute for religion. Consider what James Randi brought to the attention to the audience in the "James Randi: Sleep of Reason" video, We make assumptions. The assumptions give us a bias and the bias gives us a blind spot. A magician can use these blind spots to his or her advantage, but what a magician does is honest. Not everyone, however, is honest.

quote:

As I see it the root of all evil isn't religion. It's politics. As I see it the Atheists have an agenda and that is why they are unwilling to examine the role of politics in history. They see politics as the means to achieve their goals. As I see it is their substitute for religion. Consider what James Randi brought to the attention to the audience in the "James Randi: Sleep of Reason" video, We make assumptions. The assumptions give us a bias and the bias gives us a blind spot. A magician can use these blind spots to his or her advantage, but what a magician does is honest. Not everyone, however, is honest.


So you're talking politics both in general and within organized religion as well? If so, I would agree. All politics tend to have a degree of fanatacism.

I actually thought Tyson made a jump that was intellectually dishonest. He spoke about the period of Islam where great progress was made when Baghdad had tolerance and discussion was happening between Islamics, Christians, Jews and doubters, but wrapped up his speech with an urge to reject God altogether. What that implies is that it was purely the doubters in Baghdad that made any innovation and discredits anyone who had a religious belief.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:13:57 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


What a self-serving fantasy. So no disagreement is possible, whatever the original claim? No physical defense possible, whatever the original action?

No wonder you admire Narcissus.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:13:59 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

As I see it the root of all evil isn't religion. It's politics. As I see it the Atheists have an agenda and that is why they are unwilling to examine the role of politics in history. They see politics as the means to achieve their goals. As I see it is their substitute for religion.


Such garbage. Atheists are quite aware of the political role of religion in history and in politics. It is the religious right that poses a danger to free thought.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:16:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I actually thought Tyson made a jump that was intellectually dishonest. He spoke about the period of Islam where great progress was made when Baghdad had tolerance and discussion was happening between Islamics, Christians, Jews and doubters, but wrapped up his speech with an urge to reject God altogether. What that implies is that it was purely the doubters in Baghdad that made any innovation and discredits anyone who had a religious belief.


You missed the entire point of Tyson's speech. He rejected theological fanaticism that destroyed science in Baghdad and threatens to do the same in the West today.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/15/2012 6:18:09 AM >

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:30:33 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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quote:

It is becoming a boring carnard to equate current atheists to Stalin. There is no attempt by the 'new atheism' to use politics for any means. The glaring contradiction is that currently evangelicals are using politics from school board elections thru State houses and Congress to impose their beliefs and values on the rest of us.


There is a correlation between atheism and Communism but it would be fallaciously simplistic to claim that atheism is the only motivating factor behind Communism and yet, it is certainly a major factor and the very premise upon which Communist ideology was built. This being the case, history reflects many deaths and suffering imposed by Stalinist, Maoist, Pol Pot, etc.

To suggest that all Christians potentially threaten progress or innovation by imposing their religion is really no different. The potential to discredit, impose control or outright oppress and persecute exists in either camp.

I couldn't care less if you believe in God or not and I've long suggested that you can introduce varying "beliefs" in schools without horrific results.
I would take your comment to infer the teaching of evolution versus creationism. But evolution is still a theory and by definition a theory is: a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. It would be more intellectually honest to teach it as thus, and discuss historically the many varying beliefs surrounding the mystery of existence. Since none of us were here when the world began producing life, none of us can truly claim we know the truth, and in practicality, it matters far less how we got here and far more where we are going.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:31:26 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Get him a blog and a Twitter account. He'll die happy.


Don't forget to include a collection of Sam Vaknin books and a mirror.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:33:00 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


What a self-serving fantasy. So no disagreement is possible, whatever the original claim? No physical defense possible, whatever the original action?

No wonder you admire Narcissus.



I never said disagreement isn't possible, that is taking quite a leap from what I said. What I said was aggression. If you need to remove civility from your discussion, you're nothing but a bully, and eventually, every bully gets socked in the eye.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:36:30 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I actually thought Tyson made a jump that was intellectually dishonest. He spoke about the period of Islam where great progress was made when Baghdad had tolerance and discussion was happening between Islamics, Christians, Jews and doubters, but wrapped up his speech with an urge to reject God altogether. What that implies is that it was purely the doubters in Baghdad that made any innovation and discredits anyone who had a religious belief.


You missed the entire point of Tyson's speech. He rejected theological fanaticism that destroyed science in Baghdad and threatens to do the same in the West today.



I suggest you go back and listen to what Tyson said from 10:05 to 10:19. He did not say to reject theological fanaticism, he said to reject God.
I got the overall point, it was the conclusive statement I disagreed with. The overall point is something I would agree with.

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RE: Sleep of Reason - 7/15/2012 6:40:16 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

I think there is quite a move on the part of Atheists currently to "manage it" when it comes to anyone else believing in a deity, at least that's one way they fantasize about it as well.

So often the traits one person detests so much in another seep right in, take hold and express in the opposer's psyche. And perhaps they will still believe they are "managing it" as they feed all the monotheists to the lions literally as they most often already do metaphorically.

Since the existence of a deity cannot be proven or disproved and how, historically, theistic cultures have persecuted unbelievers, the pendulum is destined to swing back and forth endlessly or at least seemingly so. Stalin was no less zealous in his persecutions than the Inquisition.

Ultimately, any aggression, intellectually or physically, is almost certainly rooted in a deep seated insecurity about the underlying beliefs from either side.


It is becoming a boring carnard to equate current atheists to Stalin. There is no attempt by the 'new atheism' to use politics for any means. The glaring contradiction is that currently evangelicals are using politics from school board elections thru State houses and Congress to impose their beliefs and values on the rest of us.



Really? There is no attempt by the 'new atheism' to use politics for any means? So my son can organize a voluntary prayer group on school property? You can have a statue of the ten commandments in a U.S. court room? (Which incidentally, I wouldn't have the slightest problem if they had another statue of Hammurabi's code sitting right next to it)

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