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RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 5:58:27 AM   
Salinedion


Posts: 198
Joined: 5/25/2012
Status: offline 		Sincerely and with zero snark, please google Codependent No More and at least read the Wiki article.

Your mad thinking is going to lead you into a free fall of delusional pain.

_____________________________

I hate the 'reply to' note at the end of the post. Just assume I'm posting to the board at large and not the person above me unless I say diff, OK?

(in reply to lilcracker)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 8:29:47 AM   
Brutalessons


Posts: 21
Joined: 7/3/2012
Status: offline 		I thank everyone on their thoughts on the perils of the "WhiteKnight syndrome and the codependency aspect. I am very aware of the predatory nature of "Need" queens and emotional parasites and those are not My focus when I agreed to the tendency in Myself. Every form of relationship can have healthy and unhealthy aspects that can make or break it. While a tendency, it is Not My defining tendency, just a acknowledgment that I am aware of it.

Years ago, in another life we used to discuss our motives for walking into a burning building or driving at 100 MPH to get to an accident. Was it a adreneline or playing Hero that drove us... did it matter as long as someone Did pick up the White Hat. In the long run labels are just that and do not encompas the full picture.

(in reply to Salinedion)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 11:37:35 AM   
Salinedion


Posts: 198
Joined: 5/25/2012
Status: offline 		Yeah, BUT:

Saving people from burning buildings is a clearly good thing with a payoff -unlike the possibly nebulous drift you've set sail on.

You're you and this is a part of your makeup. Just make sure the tail aint wagging the dog.

_____________________________

I hate the 'reply to' note at the end of the post. Just assume I'm posting to the board at large and not the person above me unless I say diff, OK?

(in reply to Brutalessons)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 11:41:12 AM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brutalessons

Greetings Cm.

While I am relatively new to CM and have been enjoying the interactions, both from the interactions with various subs on Cmail and in browsing here on the message board, a strange, and to Me disturbing concept has been brought up... that it is A subs fault that she "failed".

To Me as a Dom, I take responsibility for my sub, Claim their successes and growth with deserved pride and Failures... disappointments... how can such not be laid to rest upon My own feet as well? It is I who guide her so if there is a failure, whether it is in achieving a goal or performing a task, or simply meeting My needs it is more of a reflection on My own failure to properly instill, encourage or provide incentive to Meet My expectations.

Running into a situation where a sub has been "released" or told they are the Cause of a failed D/s one time can be an anomaly but I have had very similar conversations with no less than 4 subs in the past weeks who have expressed this concept. Is it Me who is seeing this in the wrong light? Is not your sub a reflection of your own skill and Mastery?

If you push to soon, or hold back when a push was needed, if you fail to "read" her signals correctly, or give her the wrong ones and she responds as trained... how is it possible, in good conscience to  view it as anything but  a failing of your Own responsibility. Yes  am aware of how emotionally shattering the concept of disappointing Me can be for my sub.... but to lay the Onus on her when she is shattered .... I a sorry, I just do not comprehend that mental process that thinks this is acceptable.

Thought and feedback are welcome.



Nope, not in my relationships. I partner with adults who are, therefor, responsible for their own thoughts and actions as I am responsible for mine. Being the submissive partner does not end the fact that they are grown adults. I am no one's mommy.

As I've said elsewhere, I don't subscribe to the parent/child form of slavery. I subscribe to the rockstar/assistant model.


_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to Brutalessons)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:03:45 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		do you require all the brown M&Ms be removed?

*grins and kudos to all who get the reference*

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polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to RumpusParable)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:18:23 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline 		Only when I'm performing Panama that night.

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to GreedyTop)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:23:21 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable
Nope, not in my relationships. I partner with adults who are, therefore, responsible for their own thoughts and actions as I am responsible for mine

Ah yes. So anyone who actually wield real authority over their partner is partnered with a child? For the record, the fact that I actually wield real power over Carol does not make her a child as much as you may be unable to imagine anything else.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to RumpusParable)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:37:22 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi
I am not some weak little blob of protoplasm that sits in a corner waiting for a man to give me shape.



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When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

(in reply to lizi)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:44:21 PM   
Baz2


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/30/2011
Status: offline 		Male sub available for abuse and use as you see fit

(in reply to Salinedion)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:51:04 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baz2

Male sub available for abuse and use as you see fit


Baz, your first assignment is to click on Edit on the right hand corner of your post
and deleting the nonsense about use and abuse. This isn't the classifieds, and definitely
not a topic where your need to be used and abused is appreciated.

Do it.

Now!

_____________________________

When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

(in reply to Baz2)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 1:55:48 PM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline 		Illiteracy sprouting its wings once again !!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baz2

Male sub available for abuse and use as you see fit



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The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


(in reply to Baz2)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 3:33:39 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable
Nope, not in my relationships. I partner with adults who are, therefore, responsible for their own thoughts and actions as I am responsible for mine

Ah yes. So anyone who actually wield real authority over their partner is partnered with a child? For the record, the fact that I actually wield real power over Carol does not make her a child as much as you may be unable to imagine anything else.


The definition of authority does not end personal responsibility for the person submitting to it:

au·thor·i·ty/əˈTHôritē/
Noun:
1) The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience: "he had absolute authority over his subordinates".
2) The right to act in a specified way, delegated from one person or organization to another.


One can wield authority over an adult without treating them as their child. Authority does not mean that the other person gets to sit back and say, "I no longer take any responsibility for any action, decision or behavior".

If that is your definition of authority then, yes, I firmly believe you are playing a parent to an adult child.

< Message edited by RumpusParable -- 7/18/2012 3:35:37 PM >

_____________________________

Relationships come and go, but plastination is forever.

I generally use fast-reply. If directing my post at someone specific I will indicate so.

Minimal summary: Artist, Disabled Veteran, Vegan, Pornographer, and Agender dominant female.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 4:05:48 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable
Nope, not in my relationships. I partner with adults who are, therefore, responsible for their own thoughts and actions as I am responsible for mine

Ah yes. So anyone who actually wield real authority over their partner is partnered with a child? For the record, the fact that I actually wield real power over Carol does not make her a child as much as you may be unable to imagine anything else.


I understand where your comming from Jeff, with taking
exception to people saying there can't be true accountability
for a Dom because a Sub is a free thinking/acting person in
her own right, also there is sometimes a conflict in our
culture where societies laws are the thing protecting a Sub,
with so many of the things I do being able to be argued as
domestic abuse, can there really be any true, full power
exchange when the Sub wields the ultimate recourse of the
law if she wishes.
I do believe you when you say that your relationship is a
real power exchange with authority and responsibility, the
only diffrence I think with the opinions here is the age and
level of development in the relationships.
For a long term, married D/s relationship, with both parties
striving to be the best Dom/Sub they can be for the other,
The Dom is absolutely the one who should be responsible
for the well being of both parties.
I don't think there is the same level of accountability in
younger relationships, especially non-married D/s.

Ask yourself how long this journey has taken you and carol,
how many milestones... I'd guess it's a long way from your
starting point, in years and personal growth.
I think that the majority of viewpoints here are from a
less developed place.
I'm not saying that anyone arguing the other way is less of a
Dom either, all i'm saying is with years of working towards it,
with the right sub, I think it's posible for both people to grow
togeather to a point where the Dom is accountable for
everything and the Sub is completly at the mercy of his will,
but how many people have achieved this level?
Not me but i'll get there, life is to busy getting in the way at the
moment haha.

-ARIES

_____________________________

530 DAYS

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/18/2012 5:43:19 PM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		I'm responsible for doing what I said I'd do. The rest writes itself.

I tell her I'm going to care for her? I do. That I'll love her? Well ok, easy ones are allowed. And if I say to her that I will make it better, I'd better, because I'm giving her reason to trust me and rely upon me.

I don't think I followed the rest, because I don't control every neural impulse and synapse firing through her. If she caught a cold, I don't think I'm responsible for that, barring transference from a prolonged makeout session. If I did have that power, I'd stimulate her neurotransmitter production.

Or, fuck her senseless. I'm good with fucking her senseless. I'll be bold and assume she'd be ok with it, too.

Dammit, now I have to go masturbate. (She gives good intellect.)

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.


(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/19/2012 3:45:17 AM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		There are times when both partners are at fault, I as a sub can set my partner up to fail as much as he does. There aare times when a dominant might ask something that is too much for the sub, and in those occasions yes I think that the dominant has a responsibility to think about what the sub is capable of because failure can be a big deal.

I have recently finished a postgrad course, I take 99% of the credit for that I worked really bloody hard and if my OH started to say it is his success I would probably punch him in the face, however I also know I couldn't have done it without him, he was brilliantly supportive both when I had a bad day and the work was piling up but also in the way that he read through my papers to check for my typical dyslexic traits.

People can be 'trained' in as much as they try, a person can be supported through the process but fundementally it is their effort and their choice. Regardless of the length of relationship or the dyamics people have the ability to lie, people have the ability to make different decisions. BDSM relies on the fact that the submissive doesn't make choices that go against what the dominant has asked of them. I think its why I do not like the term training it implies that the sub stops being a sentient responsibile adult.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to RemoteUser)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/19/2012 7:21:32 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not saying that anyone arguing the other way is less of a Dom either, all i'm saying is with years of working towards it, with the right sub, I think it's possible for both people to grow together to a point where the Dom is accountable for everything and the Sub is completely at the mercy of his will, but how many people have achieved this level?

Achieved the level of parent/child? *snorts*

Honestly, I should have known better than to rise to that bait. This is not a question of "rising to some level". It's an entirely different definition of what "d/s" means. Rumpus is playing football. I'm playing basketball. If she judges my performance based on football rules she will find it lacking. That's kind of what's going on in this whole thread I think.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to ARIES83)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/19/2012 12:52:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		at the mercy of his will? Yup, that's us.

He is accountable for all that I do? Not really. He feels he's accountable for me not doing what I'm supposed to be doing because he's become lax in his dominance over me. I personally don't always feel that way since I tend to feel accountable for my own failings. But like I said earlier, we both tend to take claim to fault where fault lies or just write it off as neither is at fault or we both fell short of the mark.

But yes, I'm definitely at the mercy of his will. How many are at that point, I dunno. I think it's always been that way for us from the very beginning. There was no working up to it.

But neither of us see each other as parent/child relationship. We both hate that idea. Then again, I never was that way with my child either. Our parent/child relationship meant I made her take responsibility and fault for her actions. I never tried to protect her from the big, bad, evil world. Now I know why so many told me I was a bad parent! LOL




_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Taking responsibility. - 7/19/2012 2:18:27 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Most of what you posted here seems a bit.. romantic I guess. Unless you are discussing how good she was at learning to give a BJ or take it up the ass, very little of what an ADULT learns can be accredited to a partner. If you go to school, books and lessons are how many learn, but it is the student and the students skills and experience that help determine success. Stopping smoking is on the person and not the couple. A person has to want it and be committed to it, regardless of what their partner wishes. Learning how to cook a fabulous lasagna is part skill, part taste, a decent recipe and good working parts (oven). It really has nothing to do with a partner UNLESS he/she is teaching what they like. And even then, that's of small value, her/his next partner may wish less ricotta in their recipe.
When I was very young and already an artist, my husband would buy me paints, canvas, and let me paint what I wanted. Then he would take my art and sell it in the furniture store where he worked, as his. Because he made me.. *coff*.. at the time I had already sold art on my own. He took credit for my work, for my success, for my effort.. but it was ME. He had nothing to do with it.
I don't understand why anyone in an adult relationship would help someone blossom and expect to get credit, or blame if it does not succeed. We are adults not toddlers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brutalessons
I take responsibility for my sub, Claim their successes and growth with deserved pride and Failures... disappointments... how can such not be laid to rest upon My own feet as well?



_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to Brutalessons)
Profile   Post #: 58
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