RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With?

RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 8:02:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow quote: There is zero evidence of government involvement, absolutely none. This kind of debate at this stage is largely useless. It is like trying to convince Jehovah witness God does not exist. I'd settle for convincing a Jehova's Witness that my doorbell doesnt exist.

Fellow -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 8:18:07 AM)
quote: Seriously, if you want to prove your theory, just build a scale model of a few floors and hurl a model aircraft through it. Shouldn't be nearly as expensive as you think, especially if you get some other people in on it. If you're right, it won't work the way I say. If I'm right, the model will be molten metal and broken concrete when you're done. You are just pulling my strings. It feels silly. The airplane hit of the tower has been modeled theoretically, possibly you will find it on youtube. We have to trust the experts at some point. The towers are massive structures. The structural damage was not extensive enough to bring down the building the way it came down. The most expected was the top tilting and falling, but even this did not happen. The airplane does not disintegrate into pieces, that then move through concrete in search of other metal to melt. Hi tech nano-termite was identified from the debris by people who are 110% trustworthy. This is what it is for: to melt steel. Why do we need some exotic speculations? There are two conspiracy theories relating to 9/11: the government one and the one involving the government. The government could easily prove their conspiracy theory if correct. Why they do not do it? Actually it sounds rather absurd to start with. The hijackers had difficulties to fly a crop-duster. I am not saying the US government did it. Selected group connected to the government. Some key figures needed to be included. Everyone can name a few usual suspects. False flag attacks before bigger wars are rather common. It is almost a ritual. Just two years before 9/11 Russian security services blew up three apartment buildings killing hundreds, blamed it on Chechens, and started the second Chechen war. The event had striking similarities with 9/11.

mnottertail -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 8:23:01 AM)
theoretical concrete slumps and whatnot are fughazi. Sammy the Bull Gravano poured the cement.

jlf1961 -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 8:47:11 AM)
I have one question for the gun control nuts on this board. How do you propose to keep black market guns from criminals?

Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:03:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Possibly because there's a multinational assembly there including people from countries who'd heard the suggestion that carbon dioxide emissions might pose a problem twenty odd years before Al Gore made his little film? Besides international taxes, which would be a profound constitutional issue as well as one of sovereignty for many countries - as we have seen in Europe (and arguably even in the regionalisation of the Scottish parliament), there are other ways of improving the situation as we've seen in prior agreements. Furthermore, some proposals include taxes that stray outside the domain of the environment. It is puzzling for the UN to have pushed such a drastic measure for years - I can only assume it is a long term goal of theirs. The constitution of the u.s. states that all treaties entered into and approved become the law of the land. If the taxation ability of the u.n. was an issue it should have been taken up at the time of the signing of the document. Not that our signature on the dotted line ever meant anything and was not revocable at the whim of the govt. That has to be one of the most ridiculous comments you have made. It has nothing to do with any constitution. Signing an international agreement does not give carte blanche to do anything other than act according to the rules of said agreement. There is nothing in the UN charter about granting that body the ability to impose international taxes in any way.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:09:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have one question for the gun control nuts on this board. How do you propose to keep black market guns from criminals? Um... by making an effort to prevent them doing so. It doesn't always work but then what prohibitions have been 100% successful?

Thaz -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:37:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have one question for the gun control nuts on this board. How do you propose to keep black market guns from criminals? You cannot. However as _most_ black market guns are stolen legal guns then if you reduce the number of legaly held guns you will reduce the number available to the black market. This has been proven in the UK where firearms where once rather common and firearms very frequently used in crime prior to the 1920's (I've seen figures for the number of revolvers issues to normal Police Constables pre WW1 on a nightly basis and it was huge) but that dropped off as the Ban's of the 20's and 30's came into effect. It took years to have any impact and if the US were to suddenly ban weapons it would be decades before the current stock of weapons dried up I would imagine.....but it would happen. Firearms crime is once again on the upswing in the UK with re-actived weapons from the US bought legaly or smuggled Eastern European weapons being used...but the numbers are tiny comapred to the US rates. One of the reasons a ban wont happen in the US is the inability to get huge results in a 4-5 year term.

thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:39:36 AM)
quote: Jet fuel does not melt steel. Titanium fires will. The impact shatters the airframe. The freshly exposed titanium surfaces of the airframe ignite from the lower temperature fire of the jet fuel. The 767 has about two tons of titanium in its approximate 200 tons (1.5%) most of which is in the engines and not in the airframe. naturally aspirated jet fuel (diesel) fire is in the 600 f range. Titanium ignites at about 2200 f. Steel melts at about 2800 f.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:55:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 I have one question for the gun control nuts on this board. How do you propose to keep black market guns from criminals? The same way we keep drugs away from criminals.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 9:57:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Jet fuel does not melt steel. Titanium fires will. The impact shatters the airframe. The freshly exposed titanium surfaces of the airframe ignite from the lower temperature fire of the jet fuel. The 767 has about two tons of titanium in its approximate 200 tons (1.5%) most of which is in the engines and not in the airframe. naturally aspirated jet fuel (diesel) fire is in the 600 f range. Titanium ignites at about 2200 f. Steel melts at about 2800 f. It would seem you think the WTC towers were brought down by the US. Steel loses its strength long before it actually melts http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html when it goes into a "plastic" state. Thus it is specious to actually talk about melting point temperatures.

thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:06:40 AM)
quote: The constitution of the u.s. states that all treaties entered into and approved become the law of the land. If the taxation ability of the u.n. was an issue it should have been taken up at the time of the signing of the document. Not that our signature on the dotted line ever meant anything and was not revocable at the whim of the govt. quote: Signing an international agreement does not give carte blanche to do anything other than act according to the rules of said agreement. Why don't you check with someone who can read and ask them where I said otherwise. quote: There is nothing in the UN charter about granting that body the ability to impose international taxes in any way. The u.n. does not charge dues(taxes)? The u.n. does not charge(tax) their members for the approved missions of the u.n.?

VideoAdminTheta -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:16:25 AM)
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Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:18:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx The constitution of the u.s. states that all treaties entered into and approved become the law of the land. If the taxation ability of the u.n. was an issue it should have been taken up at the time of the signing of the document. Not that our signature on the dotted line ever meant anything and was not revocable at the whim of the govt. quote: Signing an international agreement does not give carte blanche to do anything other than act according to the rules of said agreement. Why don't you check with someone who can read and ask them where I said otherwise. You clearly implied it when you stated http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183919 quote: The constitution of the u.s. states that all treaties entered into and approved become the law of the land. If the taxation ability of the u.n. was an issue it should have been taken up at the time of the signing of the document. quote: quote: There is nothing in the UN charter about granting that body the ability to impose international taxes in any way. The u.n. does not charge dues(taxes)? The u.n. does not charge(tax) their members for the approved missions of the u.n.? Dues http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4183919 are not taxes. We all know the UN charge a membership fee to fund its activities as virtually all international bodies do.

thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:24:48 AM)
ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: Jet fuel does not melt steel. Titanium fires will. The impact shatters the airframe. The freshly exposed titanium surfaces of the airframe ignite from the lower temperature fire of the jet fuel. The 767 has about two tons of titanium in its approximate 200 tons (1.5%) most of which is in the engines and not in the airframe. naturally aspirated jet fuel (diesel) fire is in the 600 f range. Titanium ignites at about 2200 f. Steel melts at about 2800 f. quote: It would seem you think the WTC towers were brought down by the US. What I think is: The 767 has about two tons of titanium in its approximate 200 tons (1.5%) most of which is in the engines and not in the airframe. naturally aspirated jet fuel (diesel) fire is in the 600 f range. Titanium ignites at about 2200 f. Steel melts at about 2800 f. How you draw your conclusions is a mystery known only to yourself. quote: Steel loses its strength long before it actually melts http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html when it goes into a "plastic" state. Thus it is specious to actually talk about melting point temperatures. I mentioned one melting point not plural melting points. If one knows the melting point one can find the other salient parameters of of a given substance. Your cite incorrectly gives the temp of n/a jet fuel at almost twice it's actual value.

Just0Plain0Mike -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:32:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: If you can deter a criminal just by putting up an ADT sign, then you can certainly attract them by advertising that you're unarmed and not able to defend yourself. Why do you equate being unarmed with being unable to defend yourself? Imagine the thought process of a potential home invader who sees the sign "this house is a gun free zone ...do you feel luck punk?" You keep latching onto one bit of what I'm saying and turning it into an absolute. I'm not saying that robbing a home without a gun is perfectly safe. I'm also not saying that if you don't have a gun you can't defend yourself. However, if someone does a home invasion style of robbery and they're armed and you aren't, you're at a major disadvantage. I'm also saying that in the thought process of the average thug, if I'm armed and you aren't, you're a victim waiting to happen. I don't know you, you could be Bruce Leroy able to pluck bullets out of the air with your teeth, so maybe you'd feel safe going HtH with an armed felon. I spent a LOT of time learning armed and unarmed combat, and that included drills involving fighting against an opponent armed with a weapon. What that taught me is, if at all possible, don't. If you're unarmed, or even if you're armed but he's got the drop on you, give him what he wants. Odds are nothing he's going to take is worth your life. Now if it were a case where I wasn't armed and I thought it was going escalate, and I had to react to protect myself or someone else, then I'd take the risk. Anyway, my basic point at the beginning of this was that I don't feel advertising that you're unarmed is a good idea. To my way of thinking, it's the same as going out late at night wearing a shirt saying "I've got a HUGE wad of cash in my wallet". By the way, much appreciate the more subdued tone. I know on-line debates can flare out of control pretty quickly, especially if it's on a heated topic like gun-control. I'm just not in the mood for that sort thing right now. Too much crap/drama in my life already. WAY too much.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:39:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras Steel loses its strength long before it actually melts http://education.jlab.org/qa/meltingpoint_01.html when it goes into a "plastic" state. Thus it is specious to actually talk about melting point temperatures. I mentioned one melting point not plural melting points. If one knows the melting point one can find the other salient parameters of of a given substance. Your cite incorrectly gives the temp of n/a jet fuel at almost twice it's actual value. The burning temperature of jet fuel varies dependent on the conditions in which it burns. The point about melting temperatures allowing the finding of other characteristcs is debatable but not relevant here. In any case Aswad was referring to the temperature of titanium fires rather than jet fuel fires, which he discounted as a source of melting the steel structures of the WTC.

thompsonx -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 10:56:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The UN does charge its members dues, and its members are supposed to support UN operations such as peace keeping forces. At present the US is over 200 million dollars behind on dues and supporting funds for peace keeping operations dating back to 2005. This does not equate to taxes of its members, since there is no way to ENFORCE payment of those dues. Nor does the UN have the authority to tax citizens of member countries like some right wing idiots like to claim. The UN does not have a standing military, contrary to what Right wing idiots claim and the UN does not have the proper organization to become a centralized government for the planet, contrary to what the RIGHT WING IDIOTS like to claim. My point was that any treaty that the u.s. enters into and has the advice and consent of the senate becomes the law of the land. If and only if the u.n has the right to tax, charge dues or assess fees then we are by contract legally obligated to pay them. As for the ability of the u.n. to tax the world at large I do believe there are five vetos on the security council.

Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 11:07:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The UN does charge its members dues, and its members are supposed to support UN operations such as peace keeping forces. At present the US is over 200 million dollars behind on dues and supporting funds for peace keeping operations dating back to 2005. This does not equate to taxes of its members, since there is no way to ENFORCE payment of those dues. Nor does the UN have the authority to tax citizens of member countries like some right wing idiots like to claim. The UN does not have a standing military, contrary to what Right wing idiots claim and the UN does not have the proper organization to become a centralized government for the planet, contrary to what the RIGHT WING IDIOTS like to claim. My point was that any treaty that the u.s. enters into and has the advice and consent of the senate becomes the law of the land. If and only if the u.n has the right to tax, charge dues or assess fees then we are by contract legally obligated to pay them. As for the ability of the u.n. to tax the world at large I do believe there are five vetos on the security council. That is a strawman. I did not assert that treaties signed (by the US and others) with international bodies do not have some binding effect, nor did jif as far as I can see. The UN has no right to push taxes on sovereigns unless those members agreed to it, which they have not done. Hence the point that there is no reference to tax powers found in the charter.

GotSteel -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 11:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Fellow You are just pulling my strings. It feels silly. The airplane hit of the tower has been modeled theoretically, possibly you will find it on youtube. We have to trust the experts at some point. Yes exactly! We looked through the research and finding of the experts so we know the truth and as such the fairytale that you're pushing without any evidence to back it up looks like exactly what it is.

Thaz -> RE: Why Is The Equivalent Of A 9/11 Every Six Weeks Something That Americans Can ‘Live’ With? (7/27/2012 11:44:46 AM)
Steel frame buildings are normally fitted with some sort of fire proofing. A fact which has lead to the early demolition of many tower blocks as the material of choice was often asbestos. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Road_(flats) However steel starts to do really wierd things at normal building fire temps which is why you need the fire proofing:- http://guardian.150m.com/fire/small/SCI.htm for a rather spiffy and very scientifc article on the subject, including lots of experimental and real world evidence. http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/ Also provides academic studies on the twin towers, Madrid and so on. The accepted theory for the trade towers is that the gypsum wall boarding used as fire protection is fragile and did not survive contact with the aircraft impacts therefore alllowing the raging fires to weaken the steel sufficently for collapse. I am not a engineer and so I'm not going to comment on that. We dont need to go into more bizarre conspiracy theroys though, fire has doen nasty things to several tower blocks before and since 9/11.

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