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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:32:28 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:


I just do not understand what this, as important an issue and example as it is, has to do with PC within BDSM.
Yes, this statement is about PC... but how does this work within a BDSM example?
Just really trying to understand here.
 
Peace and Rapture



BDSM is replete with this principle. Take any word that is considered 'derogatory.' I'll use 'doormat' as an example. There are those who think that a doormat slave is anyone who is 'more' slaverly than those who call someone a doormat. The rest of us think they are exactly what they are.. a fucking doormat. Why call a doormat a higher level of slave unless you are trying to be PC?

This definition of PC applies very well to this example.

2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with use of such language, often to the exclusion of other matters.
 
Other matters.. as in the 'truth'. Oh, which brings up the ever popular "true" slave and 'true" master. God forbid you call yourself a 'true' anything around the BDSM crowd.. even if it's.. um.. true. If you are 'true'.. that automatically infers One True Way.. and if you don't disparage that then you are NOT being PC. You can't win for losing around folks

Oh and cheating is 'exploring?' Um, yeah. Whatever.. it's LYING about fucking. Call it what it is. If you're doing it accept the consequences for it.. but quit making fucking excuses for it.

Here's a recent example. Some 'dom' made a fake profile of a submissive woman so it would appear that she was his slave in real life. ::rolls eyes:: How pathetic is that? Why? So he would appear to be a 'true' dom. (Not that he would EVER call himself that.) Did a single person call him on that? Yeah, one did, but she's not really popular, so follow the crowd, and let it slide.. that's the PC thing to do. How funny that profile is now gone. Don't stand up and make waves. Don't say what you think. Be afraid of public opinion. That's not in any of the 'rules'.. it's just how things are here and in life off the net. We're used to being told what to do. We like the box. We like being PC because it's 'in'... and, of course, if you disparage PC then you're a fucking Nazi or something.. um.. usually. What the fuck ever. Are dominants more or less likely to fall into PC than submissives? Honestly, it's hard to tell.. there are so many dom waffles around it boggles my mind. Whatever happened to having the courage of your convictions? I may be wrong 99% of the time, but I'll never say, write or admit to being wrong when I think I'm fucking right. If someone wants to persuade me that they are right and I'm wrong.. use a logical, convincing argument and you may change my mind. But don't say that I'm wrong just because it's the PC thing to do and have nothing to back it up. If that doesn't work, then feel free to throw anything out there, no matter how off the mark it may be, so the heat is directed elsewhere. You know what I call that? A fucking coward.

How many times have you seen W/we, A/all written or lower case the 'I' in the middle of a sentence.. or capitalizing possessive pronouns if you are dominant and, of course, third person speech? Isn't it PC to just say.. well, they were raised in chat rooms, that's how their dominant wants them to do it, they don't know any other way etc so you should accept the mutilation of English grammar because that's all they know/are allowed to do in order to show 'respect' to the cyber dominants which they've had or to rid themselves of identity with 3rd person speech.  Yes, yes.. be PC, accept it, never comment on it because.. god forbid, you are intruding into the 'choices' of someone else's lifestyle.  Once in a while, I'll point out how difficult they are to read, especially for someone like me who has issues with their vision and much like trying to persuade the racists to change their ways.. it does not a whit of good because their ways are 'theirs' and they aren't changing.

And therein lies the real issue.. because if you are not PC .. then you are considered One True Way.. and how often does 'that' get blasted? That's for another thread though.  I'm just waiting for the happy medium between far right and far left. The problem is, I don't believe it really exists. There are times where you just throw your hands into the air and say.. leave me the fuck alone.. slave, start me a bath and don't skimp on the Calgon. If someone wants to bleat like a sheep, more power to them, but don't ride my ass for saying ewe to a sheep.

I can think of at least 5 more examples which are pertinent to BDSM specifically, but I think you get the drift here.

That help? ::chuckles::

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 6/10/2006 12:33:05 PM >

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:34:17 PM   
Level


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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:42:35 PM   
darkinshadows


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Hiya Bita...
 
Thanks for that - makes perfect sense what you were saying now.
What I will contend with though - just because someone sees a statement as PC - doesn't mean it is.
I am blasted all the time for saying it just doesn't fucking matter what other people think - but (apparently) thats PC.  But if I say I disagree with someone - I am being a self proclaimed goddess (thanks mods btw...) and thats still pc.  So its all no win.
 
Fuck it -I just think I need a stiff drink rather than a coffee and just hope Level doesn't make me laugh hard again
 
Peace and Rapture Bita - and thanks for responding.


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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:45:58 PM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

 
Fuck it -I just think I need a stiff drink rather than a coffee and just hope Level doesn't make me laugh hard again
 
Peace and Rapture Bita - and thanks for responding.



::chuckles:: I'm opting for the Calgon thing myself, except I don't have a slave, true or otherwise, to run my bath for me, so will just have to do it myself.

I'm outta here for the rest of the weekend. So hope everyone has as much fun as I'm planning... even though I understand this is 'all in my head' now. ::laughs::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:46:03 PM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I just can't see one with a profile running along the lines of "i'm deeply submissive, with a slave's heart, but don't think i'm going to do housework, if you want a maid, look elsewhere, and it's best for all concerned if you don't put your dangly bits near my ass, cause that ain't happening, and as for expecting me to wear that oufit in public, don't make me laugh", as very submissive lol.


Now you see, whilst I too would have problems viewing a profile like that as 'the type of sub *I* would be interested in collaring", I have no problem in her using the lable. She would obviously be looking at diffrent aspects of submission. We have a diffrence of opinion, thats all.

Ooooh sounds very PC of me does that, defending such a persons right to state they are whatever lable that want to use.... However The other side of that is if they want ME to see them that way.... like hell I will unless their actions tally with what I believe.
 
quote:

What I'm trying to say is that having limits isn't a dealbreaker for me, but disobediance is. Thus finding that compatibility you spoke is so key to acquiring a good partner.


Quite, on that we agree, however that only applies to people WE are getting involved with... People who I have no interest in I have no real interest in what they lable themselves as. Well if they start calling themselves Grand high poobah of Domliness, it might give me a chuckle at least, but I have no problems with them doing so (And showing themselves to either have a warped sense of humour... or if they think they are serious, terminaly dense) unless they think they are going to have me see them that way.
 
quote:

Well, shit. Have I dragged twiceowned's OP off track into the ditch??  PC......ah. Let me see if I can get it back on track with this potentially PC statement.


Not off track, minor detour to clarify a single related point


_____________________________

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And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:52:50 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
A better definition for Politically Correct;

politically correct
adj. Abbr. PC
1. term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, 2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with use of such language, often to the exclusion of other matters


So which of those were the people you cite as being "politically correct" doing? 

Your citation given below:
quote:


Here are a few, with more search time i will post more later.

"Hmmm it is OK because whatever labels we wish to put on ourselves are OK"
 
"Could be...however, in a not so perfect world, 'face the reality' means a different reality from ours...it's their reality and that reality might be one that is of secrecy. It does not mean they like it or enjoy it...it means.....it is their reality and not mine, or yours"
 
"Its not up to me or you to decide to call someone not a slave. If someone wants a label to be able to get into a particular headspace - good for them.

If you want to be exact - slave means an owned property - so sure, some people wouldn't be slaves, because they aren't owned.

But that would be the only reason - and as we all know, labels in BDSM rarely conform to outside of wiitwd.

If that was the case, I would be a slave. I am owned property - I am what would be viewed as 'no limits'... But - it is prefered that I am not refered to as slave because of personal choice of Demons.

So if someone calls themself slave - who are we to judge that they are not? If someone calls themself Master - so what? We have the ability to just walk away and not call them what they insist - but we certainly don't have the right to deny them being what they feel."
 
 
"lables, day in and day out lables...The definitions can be appliacble  to anyone at any time. People may drift in and out  of one definition to another. As long as you are happy about what you  identify as; why should it matter the precice correct and approved defination  of any given activity at any given moment; and just who's buiness is it anyway"


And since when is it offensive to you for people to speak in a manner calculated to provide a minimum of offense.

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 12:59:34 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Fuck it -I just think I need a stiff drink rather than a coffee and just hope Level doesn't make me laugh hard again
 


I just want everyone to be happy. 

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:05:31 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Fuck it -I just think I need a stiff drink rather than a coffee and just hope Level doesn't make me laugh hard again
 


I just want everyone to be happy. 

Well, if you want, take my hand and we can go run through LaMs thread on the Off topic board if you like and sprinkle flowers and ooze love over everyone?


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:07:44 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

A better definition for Politically Correct;

politically correct
adj. Abbr. PC
1. term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense,2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with use of such language, often to the exclusion of other matters.


I am pulling this quote, not with comments for twicehappy, but merely to use the definition here.

I think that it is critically important that we use language and discuss matters in a way that is "calculated to provide a minimum of offense". This should be a -goal-, not something we recriminate people for. It is possible to disagree with people, and to retain one's opinion and dignity, and still do so in a way that does not intentionally and unnecessarily strive to offend people.

Certainly, there are people who will still take offense when we are polite and respectful of others' humanity in expressing our opinions -- especially when they hear what they need to hear, but don't necessarily want to hear. That doesn't mean that, just because it's already going to peeve some people, I should be rude and crass in my presentation. Especially if I am saying something that is hard to hear, it is important that I frame my opinions in a way that people -might- listen to, even if they don't like what they're hearing. Being rude and argumentative and insensitive is a good way to have those difficult opinions dismissed as the ravings of a complete jackass. I don't now about anyone else, but I prefer not to be perceived as a jackass.

I don't think we've done any better by ourselves since we've decided (particularly in America) that manners and treating others with some common decency is, somehow, demeaning and a bad thing. I have to tell you that people get my attention much more readily if they are polite, recognize any effort that I've put into preparing something, and focus their disagreements on the subjects, rather than telling me that I'm a "dumb F*ing dyke who doesn't know cr*p about XYZ". I don't know about you, but I stop listening when people take that tack, no matter how accurate their point may be -- and that isn't good for the point, the speaker, or me -- because I may need to HEAR where I've mis-spoken.


Da'Avatar ZWD

www.klashaan.org

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 6/10/2006 1:09:02 PM >

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:10:11 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Can we sing "Koom-by-ya"???? *grins*.... that always cheers people up.... that and prozac lol...

*pictures LROD singing too*

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:12:37 PM   
RavenMuse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
sprinkle flowers and ooze love over everyone?


Hands Level a dustpan and brush for the flowers
Hands darkshadows a mop to clean up after all that oozing!




_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:14:23 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		PC is understood as interacting with others in a way that tilts towards the desires of the most queasy, those  most easily offended. It always results in depowering language and symbols. What I see is not that, it is an community standard that one does not pass judgment on the kinks of others. This is not just a good thing, it is required if  the community is to stick together.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 6/10/2006 1:16:37 PM >

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:15:00 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
sprinkle flowers and ooze love over everyone?


Hands Level a dustpan and brush for the flowers
Hands darkshadows a mop to clean up after all that oozing!





*Googles "dustpan" to see what Raven is talking about.......*..... oh!........*hands it to dark*....LOL

What am I thinking?? Holding a beautiful woman's hand...... or having her with a mop and dustpan in hand....*throws the cleaning stuff behind the bar*

< Message edited by Level -- 6/10/2006 1:20:26 PM >

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:24:17 PM   
LadiesBladewing


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

What I see is not that, it is an community standard that one does not pass judgement on the kinks of others. This is not just a good thing, it is required if  the comunity is to stick together.


In order to be able to function as a community, we -do- have to respect that others will have kinks that we don't share. it is also important, though, to be able to express that one's opinion when the way that a given term is being presented isn't one you share.

As an example, the whole slave/sub issue. We use the term 'servant' in our household, but when asked about the "common" term that we tend to see the people who serve us using, we tell people that individuals who see themselves as "slaves", in the way that -we- define "slave", are going to be the best fit in our household. We're looking for people who are, at some point in their life, looking to yield everything that they are to their life in service. We are looking for individuals who, when we say "this needs to be attended to", won't pull out a list of "hard limits", but will knuckle down and do what we need to have done. We're looking for people who want to serve, and who really, truly, want to pay attention to what the household -needs- and are willing to do what it takes to fulfill those needs. We're looking for people who see their service as a way of being part of everything that we are -- that they're contribution comes from giving themselves up to the Tower. If you're a slave who is looking for that, to -us- you're a slave. I'm not going to decide what someone else calls his or her property, but a brat who mouths back every time she's asked to do something -won't- be a slave in our definition... and I reserve the right to say so, in a manner that is as respectful of others rights to be what they are and call themselves what they want as I can be, while still saying "not in MY house."

Da'Avatar ZWD

www.klashaan.org

< Message edited by LadiesBladewing -- 6/10/2006 1:26:13 PM >

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:37:04 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Ladies, I have no problem with what you've said-- distilled down to "say what you will, but try to be civil". But I would add that some take that concept and would see it enforced, either by law or by speech codes. That's when I differ, and for good or bad, I would possibly differ with less than sterling manners.
 
When I hear PC, what often comes to mind is the woman who sued a co-worker because he retold the storyline of an episode of Seinfeld that she found offensive......... the university in England that tried to ban the use of words like "fat" on campus........ the librarian in Ohio who was "investigated" for suggesting books to be placed on freshman reading lists that others claimed made them feel "threatened".....

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 1:52:36 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

PC is understood as interacting with others in a way that tilts towards the desires of the most queasy, those  most easily offended. It always results in depowering language and symbols. What I see is not that, it is an community standard that one does not pass judgment on the kinks of others. This is not just a good thing, it is required if  the community is to stick together.


Very true.

Sadly there are those who feel disempowered if their kinks are not given precendence, feel shunt aside if others feelings that are different are acknowledged as equal and who become downright hostile when their personal definitions are challenged by others.

There is so much in this thread to sadden.   Yet, if it lessens the ability of the bully to use his or her own meanings as a hammer to batter others and if it reveals the real motivation behind those who want to use "true" and "real" as hand-holds to win their own pitiful game of kink-of-the-hill, it will have been worth the effort.

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 2:59:29 PM   
mastersayed


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Status: offline 		pc is definitley affecting bdsm. bdsm is about expressing your feelings as they truly are with no consideration to what society thinks. most nillas would think half of us are a bunch of crazy pervs that deserve to be burnt at the stake. there is no room for pc in bdsm, lets just say our thoughts as they are, because lets face it: nothing about bdsm is pc. how about black slaves who ask their white masters to call them niggers? or how about humiliation? there is nothing pc about those two examples and there is no room for pc in bdsm, just express your opinion and if you dont like others opinions dont go there. if your disgusted by a certain fetish dont open that thread. pc is about being as "normal" as possible (in the eyes of a bloody nilla society), bdsm is about redefining normal and not accepting the norms of society. 

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 6:07:30 PM   
ScooterTrash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Beyond that, what I see as germane to the OP is the fact (not opinion) that Scooter disagreeing with me did not hurt me. He was not pc about his thoughts, and lo and behold, my head did not explode, I did not feel undermined, I did not feel invalidated, and I damn sure did not  have the urge to call him names or go sulk LOL. I think we can agree to disagree and be no worse for wear.



Applauds Level..the point exactly. You can state what YOU feel about something and nobody is the lesser. Let's be serious...anything that anyone posts on the boards is an opinion, even if it comes from experience, so why sugar coat it. I don't mean be blatantly rude and obnoxious, but just speak your mind to get your point across and don't pussyfoot around because someone might get their panties in a knot.

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 6:29:28 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

You can believe it all you want but it seems to me that it is just another of those common tactics of the left...


Of course.  One would never find anybody with a right wing orientation making slanderous statements about other people.  Telling lies to congress and the American people when they are President of the United States.  Bashing drug abusers on radio airwaves while hiding an addiction to perscription pain killers.  Ranting endlessly about people who have extramarital affairs just prior to it being disclosed that one is banging one's secretary.  Divulging classified information (names of a CIA Operative, her husband) to a newspaper as retaliation for her making statements critical of the current administration.  Idling power plants to generate a power shortage which almost bankrupts the 7th largest economy on the planet.  Or perhaps getting caught illegally using campaign funds and facing life in prison after running Congress for years.

I need to pay closer attention to the shining examples of morality, honesty, and justice that the Right Wing in this country are shining paragons of.  I might learn something.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy



_____________________________

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RE: Is Political Correctness now affecting the bdsm com... - 6/10/2006 7:47:35 PM   
twicehappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
A better definition for Politically Correct;

politically correct
adj. Abbr. PC
1. term used to describe language that appears calculated to provide a minimum of offense, 2. Being or perceived as being overconcerned with use of such language, often to the exclusion of other matters


So which of those were the people you cite as being "politically correct" doing? 

Your citation given below:


quote:

"Hmmm it is OK because whatever labels we wish to put on ourselves are OK"



How is this politically correct?

The writer of this post states that whatever labels we put on ourselves are correct. I read the entire post, i probably should have copied the entire thing, but basically it was a statement to the effect that it is ok to call yourself whatever you were comfortable with, no body needs to feel bad or bear a label they are uncomfortable with.

This kind of politically correctness interferes with the way society and bdsm functions as a whole. How you ask? Why does it bother me you question? Let me give you some examples (btw, Celeste your posts on this were great).

I go to the store(this is a rather extreme example but at this point i believe anybody who did not get this after Celeste's goat fucker does not equal animal lover post needs one), i buy a box of Kellogg’s Corn Flakes, i go home open the box and pour myself a big bowl of Purina Cat Chow.

Whoa what happened here? The box said Kellogg’s on it. So i call Kellogg’s and they say we don't know anything about it. Ok, i am a little pissed at having a bowl of Cat Chow and milk for breakfast so i call Purina and they say, oh well sorry about your breakfast but we felt like we could label ourselves as cornflakes because it makes us feel better about the fact that we really make cat food but that is the way we feel so that's ok.

Now i am not saying everybody should have a label or fit in a box. It is ok to somewhat general and say you are a box of cereal then elaborate like i am frosted flakes or i am Wheaties. But it is sure as hell not ok to call yourself cereal if you are cat chow.

Political correctness at it's extreme, read; 2. Being or perceived as being over concerned with use of such language, often to the exclusion of other matters.

To lay it out further, the cat chow manufacturer’s workers wanted to be perceived as being something other than cat food makers, so to the exclusion of that fact they were labeled cereal manufacturers, after both products are made from grain, right?

quote:

As long as you are happy about what you  identify as; why should it matter the precice correct and approved defination  of any given activity at any given moment; and just who's buiness is it anyway"


Well the cat chow people are happy because now they get to call themselves breakfast food technicians but i am still pretty pissed about having cat chow for breakfast, so yes the precise correct approved definition matters to me at this moment.

Note; this is analogy no cat food or cereal companies were actually in involved in this post.

quote:

And since when is it offensive to you for people to speak in a manner calculated to provide a minimum of offense. 


Politeness and good manners are never offensive to me, but taken to the extreme that has become the norm; often to the exclusion of other matters, like being so inoffensive in the choice of your words that what you are saying means something else entirely (goat fucker does not equal animal lover) i find not only offensive, and annoying, i find that it can and does interfere with day to day social interaction on many levels. 


_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to JohnWarren)
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