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[Poll]

Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in English

Good for him! I think it is about time someone took a stand!

78% (85)

This is discrimination.

6% (7)

Spanish speaking people shouldn't be required to learn English.

0% (1)

I'll just eat at Taco Bell.

2% (3)

Who really gives a rats ass?

11% (12)

Total Votes : 108

(last vote on : 3/22/2008 6:38:33 PM)
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RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:32:07 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Come on Gauge, what's the use of putting words in my mouth. Who said anything about Spanish schools? The first thing immigrants want is for their children to learn English. (How many immigrants do you actually know?)

I don't know how many times I have to keep repeating that I think all government documents should be in English. Obviously that includes documents relating to public schools. And why do you keep harping on the absurdity that people who share your point of view are immediately branded as bigots and racists? Who ever called you a bigot or a racist? I certainly didn't.

You're overreacting. And Geno's is trying to get people who overreact to this issue to buy more cheese steaks.

P.S. Another example of how you're overreacting: you're wrong that Hispanics are the "overwhelming" majority of immigrants. According to census.gov, the foreign-born population in the U.S.A. is 31.1 million, of which 16.1 million were born in Latin America. That's a slight majority, not an overwhelming one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

So you find nothing wrong with Hispanics (and I only use Hispanics because they are currently the overwhelming majority of immigrants) wanting Spanish schools? Curriculum designed to cater to Spanish speaking people... paid for by American tax dollars (and before you blast me for that, I know that the legal immigrants pay taxes as well but this is America, not Mexico or Puerto Rico or Honduras). If I came into your house and told you... no... demanded that you do what I say and if you didn't do it I would protest and call you racist and bigoted... you would think this was just dandy and accept it?

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 81

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:32:39 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Who gives a fuck that someone wont speak English. Freedom is what American stands for.

I happen to give a fuck that someone WON'T speak the language. They have the freedom to choose not to, but then do not tell me that I must change what I do in my own country to suit them merely because they are refusing to adapt to the predominant language and culture around them. There is a difference between refusing to speak the language and those that are genuinely trying and aren't very good at it. The difference is their attitude.

quote:

Maybe its time for all the native-born American cry babies to stop taking it for granted that English was their birth language.

Stop taking it for granted that English was their birth language? Would you please explain to me what that means? I was born in America. I was taught English as my primary language. I do not speak any other language. I haven't had to because I live in America where English is the predominant language.

quote:

English is the most widely spoken language in the world. No wonder its alot easier when we're tourists in Europe. Because half the people in THAT country, speak the language of THIS country.

Tourists are different from immigrants. Tourists come to the country, look around and then leave. Immigrants come to another country and stay there. Believe me when I tell you that if I ever venture out of America to a foreign country I will at least learn some simple phrases of the native language. They have little electronic gadgets also that translate languages... I would take one of them too. But you see, I am making an effort... and I would be a tourist in that example. As an immigrant to another country you can be sure that I would do everything in my power to learn to speak the native language of the people.

Why must it be different here? Why should we have to compromise? I am not saying that learning another language for Americans is a bad idea... in fact it may be a great idea.... but I still find it rude that people think they do not have to learn the language where they live.

quote:

Ok...yeah its hard to communicate with someone who doesnt speak english well, but so what? We gonna hold a gun to their heads and refuse to let them use the toilet or order a burger until they can say "I gotta take a shit" in english???. Whats the point? As long as their paying their taxes and not breaking any laws, let them speak whatever language they choose.

I used to work in residential heating and air conditioning. I did it for fifteen years. I met people that could barely speak English but they were at least trying. I guess that is the point. Those that do not want to try over those that do. No one has refused to do anything for these people, all they are being asked to do is make a little effort. Is that so wrong?

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 82

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:47:35 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

How are we changing our culture? No one is telling you that you have to change. What changes for you? For us? How are "we compromising"?

We won't be subsidizing any spanish schools, as we already have ESL in most public school systems. The students are put in a position where they have to learn English. And in my state our grammar school students begin a world language in third grade. It is required in grammar and high school that we (English-speaking) Americans learn a second language.

I just dont see how anyone is affected adversely because of this. As long as the immigrants are not sponging off the welfare system, why rip on them for choosing to maintain the language of their native roots?. I guess I just have a more liberal mindset. In almost 42 years of life, I have never been adversely affected or known anyone who has been adversely affected by those who live here that do not wish to speak English. It seems personal for you, Gauge. Why does it anger you so much that there are some who deliberately avoid learning English? Do you feel its hypocritical of them to be here?

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 83

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:49:41 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Come on Gauge, what's the use of putting words in my mouth. Who said anything about Spanish schools? The first thing immigrants want is for their children to learn English. (How many immigrants do you actually know?)

I actually know quite a number of immigrants. Hispanic, Slovoc, Polish, Russian, Iranian and a few others. I am not saying that I am deeply integrated into the immigrant community... I do know a few.

And I wasn't putting words into your mouth. I brought up the school item because I was asking if you felt anything about it relative to your convictions.

quote:

And why do you keep harping on the absurdity that people who share your point of view are immediately branded as bigots and racists? Who ever called you a bigot or a racist? I certainly didn't.

No sir, you did not call me either. If I implied that you did or felt that I accused you, then I am sorry for the misunderstanding. It is not absurd that people that have voiced my opinion have been called racist and bigots... just open a newspaper to anyone that talks about these issues and those terms are slung around faster than a whore at a condom convention.

quote:

Another example of how you're overreacting: you're wrong that Hispanics are the "overwhelming" majority of immigrants. According to census.gov, the foreign-born population in the U.S.A. is 31.1 million, of which 16.1 million were born in Latin America. That's a slight majority, not an overwhelming one

Not an overreaction but a misstatement. Perhaps I should do research on numbers before I choose words, but honestly I would rather someone else correct a misstatement that I made than to actually go out and find the numbers myself. It may not be an overwhelming majority, but a majority nonetheless.

LAM, I am not trying to be an asshole. Really and truly. I do not think that I am being reactionary to something that I feel strongly within myself. Perhaps I hold different values than those I am (for lack of a better term) condemning. I would hope that everyone would make an effort to fit together. I am not asking the immigrants to give up their culture or any such thing. All I want is for them to try to adapt to American life. If they were more willing to do so, I might be more willing to meet them half way.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 84

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:57:56 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

It is not absurd that people that have voiced my opinion have been called racist and bigots... just open a newspaper to anyone that talks about these issues and those terms are slung around faster than a whore at a condom convention.

I honestly haven't seen it. I've seen more people complain about being called racist than I've seen people actually being called racist. In the article that started this whole thread, someone mentioned that Italian immigrants faced a lot of bigotry and prejudice when they first moved into Philadelphia in large numbers about three generations ago, and then asked why the owner of Geno's would want to start the cycle of racism over again. Maybe you were thinking of that comment? Well, you have to know that neighborhood. Pretending that there aren't any racists in that neighborhood is sticking your head in the sand. Anyway, it's best for BOTH sides to lay off the racial rhetoric. Only cool heads are going to solve the immigration problem.

Oh, and about this statement:

quote:

Perhaps I should do research on numbers before I choose words, but honestly I would rather someone else correct a misstatement that I made than to actually go out and find the numbers myself.

Yes, perhaps you should. You sound like someone who is overreacting to an issue and speaking passionately about it without being fully informed of the facts. Oh, I was wrong? OK, I'd rather have someone tell me I was wrong than go and find out for myself. It's hard for other people to have a reasoned discussion with you when you concede that you're not careful about what you say.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/10/2006 7:59:24 PM >

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 85

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 7:59:02 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I just dont see how anyone is affected adversely because of this. As long as the immigrants are not sponging off the welfare system, why rip on them for choosing to maintain the language of their native roots?. I guess I just have a more liberal mindset. In almost 42 years of life, I have never been adversely affected or known anyone who has been adversely affected by those who live here that do not wish to speak English. It seems personal for you, Gauge. Why does it anger you so much that there are some who deliberately avoid learning English? Do you feel its hypocritical of them to be here?

I guess, in a way it is personal to me because their actions are not the actions that I would take if the roles were reversed. If I lived in their home town and refused to learn their language... would that not be thumbing my nose at them? Would it also not be rude to expect them to learn my language to make things easier for me in THEIR OWN HOMETOWN? I am not asking them to give up their native language at all. Speak it. Keep it alive. Just don't make an issue of trying make others that do not speak your language conform to your language. I don't see how it is fair. I really don't.

It is pretty obvious that I am alone with my stance so maybe I am wrong. It has happened before that I was wrong. It will happen again. It doesn't change the way I view this though.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 86

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:02:37 PM

Gauge

Posts: 5689
Joined: 6/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Yes, perhaps you should. You sound like someone who is overreacting to an issue and speaking passionately about it without being fully informed of the facts. Oh, I was wrong? OK, I'd rather have someone tell me I was wrong than go and find out for myself. It's hard for other people to have a reasoned discussion with you when you concede that you're not careful about what you say.

Point taken and in the future I will try to keep that in mind. I just know that I am not a big numbers and statistics person. Your point is well made.

_____________________________

"For there is no folly of the beast of the earth which is not infinitely outdone by the madness of men." Herman Melville - Moby Dick

I'm wearing my chicken suit and humming La Marseillaise.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 87

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:05:58 PM

subbecky

Posts: 25
Joined: 11/16/2004
Status: offline

The jerks going to lose a lot of business from tourists. If this is everyone's attitude, then why dont americans make more of an effort to learn the languages of the countries they are in. No wonder the world hates us so.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 88

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:08:55 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

That's the main concern I've heard in Philadelphia. And it's not just that Geno's is going to lose business--EVERYONE is going to lose business if foreign tourists are made to feel unwelcome. How happy would we be if we went on vacation to Norway and were told that we had to order in Norwegian?

quote:

ORIGINAL: subbecky

The jerks going to lose a lot of business from tourists.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/10/2006 8:13:02 PM >

(in reply to subbecky)

Post #: 89

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:11:48 PM

hunterwolf

Posts: 14
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline

One of my annoyances is "Press one for English". Excuse me, what country are we in? What is it's NATURAL language? I lived in Florida for 6 months & felt like a tourist. I was very uncomfortable with so many imported individuals speaking their own languages & so few that spoke English.

If you want to wash up on a beach in raft or cross a desert border, then LEARN OUR LANGUAGE, OUR CUSTOMS, & OUR WAYS, OTHERWISE STAY HOME.

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 90

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:16:29 PM

ElectraGlide

Posts: 1246
Joined: 11/25/2005
From: Maryland
Status: offline

English is the only language I know. So unless a non english speaking person can point to what they want I can not serve them. I would not refuse them service because if they pointed out what they wanted then we communictated fine enough to get them a meal and put some money in the cash registar. I worked at a gas staton once and we had communication problems alot with foreign people. I always found it funny when they did not know a bit of english until I said 50 dollars to fix that car, then they spoke english and said 50 dollars no way . lol.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 91

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:35:31 PM

hunterwolf

Posts: 14
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline

Exactly my point, thank you. These imports know enough English words to leech off of taxpayers, welfare, foodstamps, WIC, housing, etc. Did you ever noticehow many of those females come here & are pregnant & single?

We have more than enough of our own people who are "Working Poor" & unable to get any assistance for themselves on account it all goes freely to non-contributing imports.

(in reply to ElectraGlide)

Post #: 92

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 8:40:32 PM

scifisub42

Posts: 22
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

uhh... Well, I don't know all the reasons, but if it were me, I'd have a really hard time understanding someone ordering in a language that I didn't know... 'He' might WANT a sirloin with baked potato, but if I can't understand it, well, the person could end up with a balony sandwich and tapioca pudding...

If you have an establishment where no one speaks any other language, I just don't see how anyone could EXPECT to be able to order in another language... If someone CAN speak another language, I would think that could be a selling point.

It seems to me like a lot of people are trying to make this into a political or racist thing, and I think it's more about common sense and practicality. Does this mean that someone would be eliminated from a job because they COULDN'T speak another language? and how many languages do you support in your establishment? If you say that you must have Spanish, then must you also have Russian, German, Greek, French, and Esperanto? Would it then be racist to NOT have those other languages, or to hire someone who could not speak all those languages?

Some years ago, a woman sued a fast food place, for discrimination on the job (being let go because she couldn't speak Spanish yet, there is nothing in the company's policy that required spanish speaking)

If you move to a country, you ought to make an ATTEMPT to learn the language so you can get by.... Not everyone is good at learning another language, but I understand that the attempt is appreciated. An example, I have heard that a visitor in Japan who attempts to speak the language and follow the customs will be better recieved.

scifi

(in reply to ElectraGlide)

Post #: 93

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 9:00:16 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

quote:

I just dont see how anyone is affected adversely because of this. As long as the immigrants are not sponging off the welfare system, why rip on them for choosing to maintain the language of their native roots?. I guess I just have a more liberal mindset. In almost 42 years of life, I have never been adversely affected or known anyone who has been adversely affected by those who live here that do not wish to speak English. It seems personal for you, Gauge. Why does it anger you so much that there are some who deliberately avoid learning English? Do you feel its hypocritical of them to be here?

I guess, in a way it is personal to me because their actions are not the actions that I would take if the roles were reversed. If I lived in their home town and refused to learn their language... would that not be thumbing my nose at them? Would it also not be rude to expect them to learn my language to make things easier for me in THEIR OWN HOMETOWN? I am not asking them to give up their native language at all. Speak it. Keep it alive. Just don't make an issue of trying make others that do not speak your language conform to your language. I don't see how it is fair. I really don't.

It is pretty obvious that I am alone with my stance so maybe I am wrong. It has happened before that I was wrong. It will happen again. It doesn't change the way I view this though.

Gauge:

You're not alone at all in your stance. Alot of the posters agree emphatically with you. And your feelings cant be right or wrong, even if you were the only person in the world who felt this way. However, tons of people share your sentiments (off of CM, in real life too). Then some see it as a non-issue. Its just what you're going to get when you put something up for public scrutiny.

What would be good would be to talk to some immigrants and get inside their heads to find out what it is that keeps some of them from wanting to learn the language. Doesnt make them bad people. Maybe they feel its a betrayal to their roots somehow. Maybe they dont feel confident in learning, so they dont even try. Maybe its their way of keeping a piece of 'home' with them. Who knows why. But in their minds they must have some reason, something that makes them resist. Surely it cant be hatred for Americans and our culture, or they wouldnt be here, struggling their asses off for minimun wages.

You are so opinionated on this topic, thats why I asked if it was personal to you. Maybe because of what your grandparents went through (if I remember correctly from one of your posts on this thread, that I read yesterday) It sounded like your grandfather struggled and maybe you dont like to see others in the same boat (no pun intended) having an easy time of it, when your grandfather made a more concerted effort to fit in and to adapt. Who am I to analyze? It crossed my mind, so Im putting it out there. In reading your posts, your passion and your need to be understood is palpable, which usually means that there is something personal underlying that could be pushing a button. Either way, you feel what you feel and its valid to you. However, there most likely wont be any changes in the world from the whole Geno's statement. Take pride in what your grandfather stood for and carry his honor, be the proud American that you are and let the rest of them worry about reconciling their own ethics. Theres my bit of unsolicited advice.

.

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 94

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 9:06:27 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hunterwolf

Exactly my point, thank you. These imports know enough English words to leech off of taxpayers, welfare, foodstamps, WIC, housing, etc. Did you ever noticehow many of those females come here & are pregnant & single?

We have more than enough of our own people who are "Working Poor" & unable to get any assistance for themselves on account it all goes freely to non-contributing imports.

I am really not clear on the stats here, but Id be willing to bet that there are more americans raping the system than immigrants. You cant stereotype them all like that. Immigrants are all over the place living as entire extended families in small homes, working their asses off doing jobs that most americans would thumb their noses at, like washing dishes, laying tar and all sorts of other hard labor for 14 hours a day, so that their 7 bucks an hour can feed their kids.

And "our own people" are Americans, because at some point, their immigrant ancestors came here and struggled to get ahead.

(in reply to hunterwolf)

Post #: 95

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 9:20:31 PM

hunterwolf

Posts: 14
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline

How many of these imports are ILLEGALLY working here for 7 dollars a day in clothing mills, construction & on farms etc? A new Wal-Mart here just got popped for having 40 something Mexicans without permits etc & they are being allowed to stay here till they get things settled. I will be dammed if my taxes are going to support their butts until our governement decides what to do with them. My opinion is "Return to sender".

I believe this topic is how these imports have done so much economic damage to this country for so long & we are just beginning to realize it. Let's forget about our ancestors, for now. That was a whole different era, society, etc.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 96

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 9:27:56 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hunterwolf

How many of these imports are ILLEGALLY working here for 7 dollars a day in clothing mills, construction & on farms etc? A new Wal-Mart here just got popped for having 40 something Mexicans without permits etc & they are being allowed to stay here till they get things settled. I will be dammed if my taxes are going to support their butts until our governement decides what to do with them. My opinion is "Return to sender".

I believe this topic is how these imports have done so much economic damage to this country for so long & we are just beginning to realize it. Let's forget about our ancestors, for now. That was a whole different era, society, etc.

Actually the OP has stated several times that this topic was not about *illegal* immigrants.

My comment about our ancestors comeing here as the reason that *we* are here, was relevant to the topic of the post. Which was should *legal* immigrants come here and make no effort to learn the English language and adapt to the American ways. Or should they expect Americans to bend to *their* needs. Thats paraphrased a bit. But that was the topic, not illegal "imports'.

(in reply to hunterwolf)

Post #: 97

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 10:47:28 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

But Wal-Mart's here to stay, right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: hunterwolf

A new Wal-Mart here just got popped for having 40 something Mexicans without permits etc & they are being allowed to stay here till they get things settled. I will be dammed if my taxes are going to support their butts until our governement decides what to do with them. My opinion is "Return to sender".

(in reply to hunterwolf)

Post #: 98

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/10/2006 11:07:24 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

It is usually about money. If the restaurant takes a hit on cash because they will not cater to people based upon their language, well they really are shooting themselves in the foot aren't they?

When Americans go to other countries they expect someone to speak their language if they are going to spend their dollars... well I do not find it outrageous for people that speak Spanish to spend their money where people speak their language. It really is all about convenience and cash.

I think Americans should speak more languages, not only one... I see how in other countries their children are trilingual, and our kids can't even master English... pretty pathetic.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/10/2006 11:08:08 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Gauge)

Post #: 99

RE: Philly Restaurant Owner Asks Patrons to Order in En... - 6/11/2006 1:10:49 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Lord, we don't have an "Immigrant Problem" in this country but we do have an "Illegal Alien Problem."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 100

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