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RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/2/2012 9:10:22 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
On other threads you have argued passionately (and sensibly I thought) for a greater focus on preventative medicine. Perhaps you failed to notice the headline in the OP:
Women's preventative services now covered under Obamacare. (my emphasis)
Now it appears you are up in arms about the very thing you advocated for and proposed not so long ago .........


Nope, not any kind of hypocrisy on my part at all, but thanks for the attempt. If you look solely at my support of preventive medicine vs. reactive medicine, then, it could very well look as if I've flip flopped. My support for preventive medicine has not changed at all. My complaint here isn't that preventive medicine is being pushed, it's that it's being paid for by someone not the receiver of the services.

User pays preventative medicine! What a unique innovative suggestion!

It sounds terrific, as long as you don't actually think about what it means. That's when the problems start. If you ever manage to reconcile the in-principle contradictory approaches, how could any one devise a fair mechanism to (for instance) charge in advance those women who don't know about contraceptive services a fee for educating them? If that sounds idiotic it is because it is idiotic. This proposal is so nutty it would be rejected in la-la land (which might be where it's origins lie)

The whole point of having healthcare insurance funding systems whether private or public is to avoid the 'user pays' approach. Applying the 'user pays' principle defeats the aim of the exercise. Trying to apply user pays to public health education is even more of a nightmare. Clearly, this idea hasn't been thought through - if it was, it would never be advanced. It has more holes than a pair of fishnets.

So I'm going to file this proposal under 'gibberish' and await a serious explanation of why you are contradicting yourself. Please surprise me - give me a serious objection, one that has been thought through and actually can withstand scrutiny for longer than the 1.75 seconds it took to see through this nonsense.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/2/2012 9:29:44 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/2/2012 9:17:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls

I'm already angry I have to buy viagara for old farts. Now I have to buy birth control for every woman who would rather spend her money on an Iphone?

In the old days, Insurance didn't cover anything that wasn't medically necessary, and guess what, insurance was affordable. The real problem with Obamacare is that once they have forced you to buy insurance, then the insurance companies can go up on the premiums at will. There's not a damn thing you can do about it.


Care to explain why the laws of the free market will be suspended ?
The same free market that you cons love to trumpet will still hold sway in the insurance business ,won't it ?

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/2/2012 9:41:57 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Care to explain why the laws of the free market will be suspended ?


This is a failure of your imagination I'm sorry to advise you Mike.

Everything will happen in the same place where the super-wealthy, out of the goodness of their hearts will command their chauffeurs to stop and pick that hobo lying on the side of the road crippled with <insert your choice of life threatening conditions here>, ferry them to the local hospital and generously pay the bill to fix the poor hobo up and nurse him back to health. In fact, billionaires will fall over each other in the rush to help the truly needy while those nasty welfare malingerers will suddenly discover the will to work and carry the stretchers for the doctors who will, in a rush of blood, donate their expert services free.

You'll forgive me if I am unable to provide an exact address at the moment. I'll get back to you as soon as my local billionaire has advised me ........ zzzzzzzzzzzz





< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/2/2012 9:42:58 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 9:20:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceseven
quote:

it's that it's being paid for by someone not the receiver of the services.

It is being covered by premiums, paid for by the person receiving the care and those in the insurance company pool, how do you think your health care works, nobody else's money is used to pay for services you receive???
The law requires insurance companies to pay for these services, just like you can go and get preventive health care the insurance company pays the DR/hosp out of the money they charge everyone they insure......or do you pay 100% of all your medical costs and also pay an insurance company for medical coverage?


So, what you are saying is that the services are paid for out of a "pool of premium payments." Since, this is a "pool," some of the money is being paid by people other than the service receiver. And, lest we forget, those who have subsidized insurance aren't really paying in, either, now, are they? And, let's look at what happens when the amount of money paid out increases, what happens to everyone in that pool, regardless of whether the payments increased for that person or not? That's right! The premiums rise! And, this increase is set on everyone within that pool, regardless of the risk the person adds. And, while we're at it, the premiums are already going to be bloated some because you can't charge a person with a pre-existing condition (aka significantly higher risk) more than someone without pre-existing conditions.

No, I don't pay an insurance company for medical coverage.

Thus far, yes, I do pay 100% of my medical costs.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to subspaceseven)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 9:25:52 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
That's akin to preventing insurance companies from charging more for higher-risk drivers and/or vehicles. Insurance companies have to make it up somehow and the only somehow is charging everyone more. Kinda means that Obama's "No one will pay more for health insurance." claim was a LIE.


It's a real turn-on when local insurance rates rise due to catastrophe payouts nowhere near my locality.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 9:36:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
So poor women should only have procreative sex?


If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of the kitchen.

There are very few modes of birth control that are 100% effective in removing the risk of pregnancy. Unless the person is a complete and utter moron, he/she will know that sexual intercourse is a pretty good way to get pregnant. If you are going to engage in risky behaviors, you will have to accept the consequences of those behaviors. If you can't handle the consequences, you just might not want to engage in the behavior. Just a thought.

And, I do not think that engaging in sex and handling a pregnancy is a woman's problem. It's the man and the woman's problem.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 9:46:05 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		How little you truly understand.

A woman in a bad marriage should just tell him know and risk getting beaten when she does so, with the full knowledge that she has other children and cannot possibly leave the bread winner because she has no where to go.

Yeah... makes brilliant sense to tell her to keep her legs closed.

And that is far too often the story for many women.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 9:52:25 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

No, I don't pay an insurance company for medical coverage.

Thus far, yes, I do pay 100% of my medical costs.


Are you immune to diabeties,cancer,m/s,car accidents?
You and the rest of us are just a half click away from an expensive trip to the hospital (mine is covered with no limit on the top end...how about you???can you shell out a couple of million to cover your medical expenses?).
Your posted bluster about paying 100% of your medical expenses is simply moronic on its face.
While you may think you are "bullet proof" a quick trip to google will disabuse you of your odds of staying "bullet proof"Your post take on the character of a man with a paper asshole trying to fight a forrest fire.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 8/3/2012 9:55:28 AM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:15:10 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
User pays preventative medicine! What a unique innovative suggestion!
It sounds terrific, as long as you don't actually think about what it means. That's when the problems start. If you ever manage to reconcile the in-principle contradictory approaches, how could any one devise a fair mechanism to (for instance) charge in advance those women who don't know about contraceptive services a fee for educating them? If that sounds idiotic it is because it is idiotic. This proposal is so nutty it would be rejected in la-la land (which might be where it's origins lie)
The whole point of having healthcare insurance funding systems whether private or public is to avoid the 'user pays' approach. Applying the 'user pays' principle defeats the aim of the exercise. Trying to apply user pays to public health education is even more of a nightmare. Clearly, this idea hasn't been thought through - if it was, it would never be advanced. It has more holes than a pair of fishnets.
So I'm going to file this proposal under 'gibberish' and await a serious explanation of why you are contradicting yourself. Please surprise me - give me a serious objection, one that has been thought through and actually can withstand scrutiny for longer than the 1.75 seconds it took to see through this nonsense.


And, there we have it. The goal of insurance is to prevent the user from having to pay for the services he or she uses. Socializing the costs while privatizing the gains. Works so well in banking, too, doesn't it? Great for the auto industry, too!



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:24:50 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		human lives are different to cars and money..simple truth...anywhere but the american socially stunted conservatives it seems.
try using a relevant analogy please

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:32:49 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

And, there we have it. The goal of insurance is to prevent the user from having to pay for the services he or she uses. Socializing the costs while privatizing the gains. Works so well in banking, too, doesn't it? Great for the auto industry, too!


The goal of insurance is to spread risk among the general population. 100 drivers pay car insurance to pay for the one accident that happens. Everyone pays an affordable sum to avoid the risk of having to pay unaffordable sums.

Insurance only works if everyone or a large pool participates. Because everyone participates in health care, the risk and the costs need to be spread to everyone. Insurance companies need a large pool to operate, and they cannot function if Mr. X. only files for health insurance after his cancer diagnosis.

The is no privatizing of gains here. The losses are aren't socialized, they are insured.

The banking industry was bailed out by the GOV because the price of not doing it would have been greater (a Great Depression and Economic Collapse.) Insurance was not involved, except for AIG. But that's a whole other can of worms.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:35:09 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
How little you truly understand.
A woman in a bad marriage should just tell him know and risk getting beaten when she does so, with the full knowledge that she has other children and cannot possibly leave the bread winner because she has no where to go.
Yeah... makes brilliant sense to tell her to keep her legs closed.
And that is far too often the story for many women.


Yeah, cuz there's no such thing as domestic violence, or prosecution for same!!

There is a problem in that relationship. He abuses her. That's not a call for free birth control. That's a call for the police.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:40:07 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

No, I don't pay an insurance company for medical coverage.
Thus far, yes, I do pay 100% of my medical costs.

Are you immune to diabeties,cancer,m/s,car accidents?
You and the rest of us are just a half click away from an expensive trip to the hospital (mine is covered with no limit on the top end...how about you???can you shell out a couple of million to cover your medical expenses?).
Your posted bluster about paying 100% of your medical expenses is simply moronic on its face.
While you may think you are "bullet proof" a quick trip to google will disabuse you of your odds of staying "bullet proof"Your post take on the character of a man with a paper asshole trying to fight a forrest fire.


So, my "bluster" about paying 100% of my medical expenses is moronic? Really? How so? When I see a doctor, I pay the fee. When I get my Rx, I pay the fee. I don't have insurance, so I'm not paying premiums, and I'm not not paying any charges. So, please do tell me how it's "bluster" and how it's "moronic on its face."

Never said I was bullet proof. Never said I wasn't going to incur medical expenses. Not sure where you get that crap.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:40:10 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah... because its easy to physically abuse a woman... especially when she already has a few kids, no where to go.. no way to get out... and people like you are demanding assistance be cut to h elp her out of that situation.

Call the police... she has maybe a month before she gets booted out because she has no income. Add a young or sick child.. and she is very very stuck. Its easier to spread her legs than deal with people who believe she has all the choices in the world.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:46:21 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
human lives are different to cars and money..simple truth...anywhere but the american socially stunted conservatives it seems.
try using a relevant analogy please


cars and money and human lives. Yep, 3 different things. Perhaps they should be treated differently, too, eh? But, instead, we reward failing auto companies with a bailout (socializing the costs while privatizing the gains), and do the same with banks. I assume you were "against" the bank bailouts. Was I right or wrong? You see, I'm okay with there being a choice available to partially socialize the cost of medical care. I really am. I was against the auto and bank bailouts, though. I wasn't "for" socializing their losses, because of their failing business models. And, yes, I do know that Bush started the Bank bailouts and even signed the auto bailouts into being. And, it really pissed me off that he did so.

So, both of my analogies were spot on. You just didn't get them. My fault for not explaining it in the first place. I was not talking about auto insurance at all.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:48:05 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

No, I don't pay an insurance company for medical coverage.
Thus far, yes, I do pay 100% of my medical costs.

Are you immune to diabeties,cancer,m/s,car accidents?
You and the rest of us are just a half click away from an expensive trip to the hospital (mine is covered with no limit on the top end...how about you???can you shell out a couple of million to cover your medical expenses?).
Your posted bluster about paying 100% of your medical expenses is simply moronic on its face.
While you may think you are "bullet proof" a quick trip to google will disabuse you of your odds of staying "bullet proof"Your post take on the character of a man with a paper asshole trying to fight a forrest fire.


So, my "bluster" about paying 100% of my medical expenses is moronic? Really? How so? When I see a doctor, I pay the fee. When I get my Rx, I pay the fee. I don't have insurance, so I'm not paying premiums, and I'm not not paying any charges. So, please do tell me how it's "bluster" and how it's "moronic on its face."

Never said I was bullet proof. Never said I wasn't going to incur medical expenses. Not sure where you get that crap.



Your post is moronic for the reasons indicated. That you choose to be obtuse is your problem and not mine.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:55:09 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
quote:

And, there we have it. The goal of insurance is to prevent the user from having to pay for the services he or she uses. Socializing the costs while privatizing the gains. Works so well in banking, too, doesn't it? Great for the auto industry, too!

The goal of insurance is to spread risk among the general population. 100 drivers pay car insurance to pay for the one accident that happens. Everyone pays an affordable sum to avoid the risk of having to pay unaffordable sums.


If I don't drive, do I have to pay insurance? Can I not choose to not participate?

quote:

Insurance only works if everyone or a large pool participates. Because everyone participates in health care, the risk and the costs need to be spread to everyone. Insurance companies need a large pool to operate, and they cannot function if Mr. X. only files for health insurance after his cancer diagnosis.


No, the risks and costs don't need to be spread to everyone. How did we function prior to insurance?

quote:


The is no privatizing of gains here. The losses are aren't socialized, they are insured.


Insured through the socialization of it. Come on. Really?

Oh, and, next time Mr. X gets a colonoscopy, what benefits (gains) should I expect to get?

quote:


The banking industry was bailed out by the GOV because the price of not doing it would have been greater (a Great Depression and Economic Collapse.) Insurance was not involved, except for AIG. But that's a whole other can of worms.


Are you 100% sure that's what would have happened, and are you 100% sure that wouldn't have led to a better solution in the end? You do realize that the Federal Reserve acted similarly in the 20's, right? And, Bernanke has already stated that the Federal Reserve was complicit (in part) by their actions, for the Great Depression, right? You also know that in 1921, there was a recession that wasn't remedied by the Federal Government and the Federal Reserve, right?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 10:56:27 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Perhaps they should be treated differently, too, eh
yes....
and as such, they are not the same analogy wise.
Simple..and please dont assume, I dont "get" the attempted analogies.
That is why I said what I said.
Your "baffle em with bullshit" routine is so transparent, its not funny.
PS there certainly IS help for abused men. The fact that it isnt as rampantly recognized or advertised, is not down to the ACA


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 11:01:12 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

No, I don't pay an insurance company for medical coverage.
Thus far, yes, I do pay 100% of my medical costs.

Are you immune to diabeties,cancer,m/s,car accidents?
You and the rest of us are just a half click away from an expensive trip to the hospital (mine is covered with no limit on the top end...how about you???can you shell out a couple of million to cover your medical expenses?).
Your posted bluster about paying 100% of your medical expenses is simply moronic on its face.
While you may think you are "bullet proof" a quick trip to google will disabuse you of your odds of staying "bullet proof"Your post take on the character of a man with a paper asshole trying to fight a forrest fire.

So, my "bluster" about paying 100% of my medical expenses is moronic? Really? How so? When I see a doctor, I pay the fee. When I get my Rx, I pay the fee. I don't have insurance, so I'm not paying premiums, and I'm not not paying any charges. So, please do tell me how it's "bluster" and how it's "moronic on its face."
Never said I was bullet proof. Never said I wasn't going to incur medical expenses. Not sure where you get that crap.

Your post is moronic for the reasons indicated. That you choose to be obtuse is your problem and not mine.


So, my accounting of who pays my medical costs is "bluster" because it's.....?

Why does one need insurance? And, this is a digging in discussion. I have my reasons for why it's good to have insurance. I'm looking to walk you through all the mess, so be civil, please.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The 8 Ways Obamacare Helps 47 Million Women, Starti... - 8/3/2012 11:06:40 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Perhaps they should be treated differently, too, eh
yes....
and as such, they are not the same analogy wise.


But, they were (are, and will be) treated the same, even though, they are not the same. OMG!! He did use great analogies!

quote:


Simple..and please dont assume, I dont "get" the attempted analogies.
That is why I said what I said.
Your "baffle em with bullshit" routine is so transparent, its not funny.


You know why you can see through the "baffle 'em with bullshit" routine? It's because you fail to look at anything but your own ideology, and ascribe anything other than your view as a "bullshit routine."

quote:


PS there certainly IS help for abused men. The fact that it isnt as rampantly recognized or advertised, is not down to the ACA


And, once again, you didn't get what I said.

I never said anything about a man being abused. I stated that he was abusing her. Just because he's the breadwinner doesn't make him a slave owner and/or above domestic violence laws.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 80
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