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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:07:34 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Yeah I don't flip out on those who want to give me a hug or something like that. I just try to separate as soon as possible, give a little, weak smile and continue on with the day. There are a lot of women in my girls' group that loves to give hugs. I just deal with it and tolerate it just to be civil.

But if some stranger was to slap me or hit me with a toy when neither I nor Master has given permission, they would be getting an earful or worse.


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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:12:08 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		*laughs* I wanna go to the play club that only allows folks like you and Kana. I'd love to watch you do your gig and your stance on personal responsibility makes me feel "protected" *laughs*.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:16:15 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

omg, I ADORE Kane!!


He is SO awesome!!


Kane and Careena are two of our favorite people. We genuinely consider them to be friends.

So, I'm sure you know how Kane is about the "rules"...




Indeed I do! Although I am sure neither of them will remember me, please let them know that I think of them both with much fondness!! Also that I still get the LDS notifications and wish like hell I could attend! LOL


We were at LDS one night and were invited watch a private spanking scene between Kane and Careena. There was also a new guy that Kane was showing around that was invited. We all went into one of the back bedrooms. I'm sitting on Master's lap watching this spanking (You couldn't PAY me to consent to a spanking from Kane) and the new guy reaches out to touch Careena's pussy without asking. Kane latched onto his wrist and very quietly said, "You don't touch unless I say you can touch".

Master later said to me, "That's guys life flashed in front of MY eyes...."


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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:19:12 AM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

*laughs* I wanna go to the play club that only allows folks like you and Kana. I'd love to watch you do your gig and your stance on personal responsibility makes me feel "protected" *laughs*.


That's funny. We're just regular ole folks with morals and values and common sense. Personal responsibility is huge on our list of those values and morals. Sometimes I think we're just too old fashioned these days for most folks lol.


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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 11:39:55 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Yeah I don't flip out on those who want to give me a hug or something like that. I just try to separate as soon as possible, give a little, weak smile and continue on with the day. There are a lot of women in my girls' group that loves to give hugs. I just deal with it and tolerate it just to be civil.

But if some stranger was to slap me or hit me with a toy when neither I nor Master has given permission, they would be getting an earful or worse.



See that's how I feel about it too. I'm not going to freak out about a handshake, a hug or even a slap on the back. I wouldn't necessarily mind that much out if somebody gently touched my neck without asking, though I'd consider that a little bit rude. But hitting me, or touching my genitalia, or grabbing my neck in a shock hold without contact being ok-ed by me first is just pushing it way too far.

I still wouldn't make a scene about it... hell... it's not like it'd be that big of a deal for me personal... I just make it VERY clear that such things are not appreciated by me, and I would mark you off at that point as a person I cannot trust in any way shape or form, and wouldn't want anything more to do with you. However, I wouldn't be freaked out or traumatized in any way by any of that stuff... just annoyed and offended.

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I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
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You love me for everything you hate me for

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:05:26 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Great... let's the three of us make our own club where... you know... well balanced adults can get along without all the drama.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:19:46 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		fr-

my default is to NOT touch, in any number of situations, even where there's nudity (in fact, especially where there's nudity). even when I'm being intimate with someone, i don't "take" them or assume things right off the bat. there's just no excuse for that. and any visceral and/or physical defensive reaction is perfectly justified when a stranger intentionally touches you. the guy with the dislocated thumb got off easy.

edit/disclaimer - of course you have to take things in context and what the social norms are. in SOME Asian countries, people can be very touchy. i lost track of how many men i didn't know greeted me with warm shoulder pats (and no, it wasn't a gay thing, nor am i gay).

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 8/14/2012 12:21:46 PM >

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:22:27 PM   
lizi


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Joined: 2/1/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

It seems that when people get into bdsm they lose their entire manners. It's like they think manners are not required in bdsm as everywhere else. If you wouldn't touch a stranger of any type, why would you touch them in a bdsm setting??? This is just common sense manners.

If a stranger touches me when I'm at a friend's home or a grocery store, I'm gonna tell them that I don't like to be touched and then I would walk away from them and not ever be around them at all because they've already proved to me that they have no social graces.

If a stranger at a play party touches me, I'm going to do the same and I'm sure Master would have some input into as well and it won't be a pretty picture.

Once again, for the umpteenth time and I think I'm going to add it to my signature:

Bdsm is not different, it is not unique, it is not special. If you wouldn't do it in a "vanilla" setting, don't do it in a bdsm one either. How friggin hard is that to understand???


What I think is happening is that some people want kink to mean something different than the general society rules. You see it in threads all the time where people interpret what BDSM is to them and assume that those thoughts are universal to every other person who engages in it. They see something that floats their boat and want it to be this magical place that exists outside of the norm, where they can run wild without consequence. These are people with poor social skills and boundaries, and BDSM to them I think is a place where they believe they can function without having to work at being appropriate.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:27:15 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		well said, agree. and i would expand...

quote:


and BDSM to them I think is a place where they believe they can function without having to work at being appropriate.


that some seem to misinterpret BDSM as an avenue for not needing to be appropriate with other human beings.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:29:25 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lizi


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

It seems that when people get into bdsm they lose their entire manners. It's like they think manners are not required in bdsm as everywhere else. If you wouldn't touch a stranger of any type, why would you touch them in a bdsm setting??? This is just common sense manners.

If a stranger touches me when I'm at a friend's home or a grocery store, I'm gonna tell them that I don't like to be touched and then I would walk away from them and not ever be around them at all because they've already proved to me that they have no social graces.

If a stranger at a play party touches me, I'm going to do the same and I'm sure Master would have some input into as well and it won't be a pretty picture.

Once again, for the umpteenth time and I think I'm going to add it to my signature:

Bdsm is not different, it is not unique, it is not special. If you wouldn't do it in a "vanilla" setting, don't do it in a bdsm one either. How friggin hard is that to understand???


What I think is happening is that some people want kink to mean something different than the general society rules. You see it in threads all the time where people interpret what BDSM is to them and assume that those thoughts are universal to every other person who engages in it. They see something that floats their boat and want it to be this magical place that exists outside of the norm, where they can run wild without consequence. These are people with poor social skills and boundaries, and BDSM to them I think is a place where they believe they can function without having to work at being appropriate.


I've met a fair number of Doms that either 1) that genuinely think that submissive means submissive to everyone that has labeled themselves a Dom or 2) will try to convince a novice of that, simply to take advantage of naivete. In both cases, they tend to touch beyond what is acceptable in the vanilla world.


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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:50:57 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Maybe I'm wierd, I shake hands with or hug only people I know well and only upon greeting. Otherwise, the only touching I do to someone I'm not actually with is a gentle hand on the shoulder accompanied by an "Excuse me please" if the route to the bathroom is crowded and I'm 'overhydrated'.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/14/2012 12:51:31 PM >

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:55:03 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I think you'd need to define "touch" before I can understand. For me personally I am very physically attuned to touch. It is very intimate... even casual things like hand shakes. Accordingly, I don't like it when strange people touch me. But you know what? When some woman gives me a hug I don't flip out. I graciously accept the hug, cringing a bit inside, and smile back and try to do the reasonable thing.

Now.. if some strange woman came up to me and grabbed my balls that would be a very different outcome.

I sure the fuck do not want to be anywhere within a 100' of a woman who might, upon the most casual of brushings in a crowded room, flip out. Not to worry though. This whole thing has convinced me that I really don't want to be anywhere near any of these settings ever. You all can flip out over each other far, far away from me is where I'm at with this.



Oh come on, don't be such a drama queen! Do you think that somebody brushed the woman accidentally on the neck? It was explicitly touching without permission, not brushing without permission.

It's possibly a good thing that you don't want to go to a BDSM event because there usually is no flipping out and most people prefer it that way, hence the don't touch without permission rule and luckily enforced. Nobody is flipping out, but your attitude is enough to make people think about it.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:55:12 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Great... let's the three of us make our own club where... you know... well balanced adults can get along without all the drama.


Once upon a time I actually seriously thought of creating a "secret" club where the only ones invited were those or my partner selectively chose to invite and had to be vetted by someone else already in the club. First rule: You don't not speak about the club.

But then I came to the realization it would probably be empty.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 12:58:42 PM   
threadbare


Posts: 21
Joined: 6/25/2007
Status: offline 		I can only comment from public places as beaches and at bars- when a boundary is crossed I correct it to the same degree. I've chased down an upskirter, which in my case was up my legs in a Bikini, and shamed a guy in Georgetown who thought he was cute. Damn near called the cops. Why have I not yet done defense classes? Most touching doesnt phase me. I'm touchy. But won't hesitate putting that shit down.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 1:06:46 PM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Maybe I'm wierd, I shake hands with or hug only people I know well and only upon greeting. Otherwise, the only touching I do to someone I'm not actually with is a gentle hand on the shoulder accompanied by an "Excuse me please" if the route to the bathroom is crowded and I'm 'overhydrated'.


Same here, I think it's invading somebody's personal space and being rude about it, I mean it's not accepted to go round and pinch female bootie, and a stranger touching me rather inappropriately, just not well received, nowhere. A handshake or touching somebody on the arm or shoulder because you need their attention is a different thing, also hugs amongst friends. I find it almost shocking how some people just think because they are at a BDSM environment the same rules don't apply, you wouldn't touch a female at work inappropriately, same in a bar or a restaurant, and if the woman complains because the hand was where it shouldn't be, she is within her rights. I got annoyed a few times when somebody I don't know thinks he can put his arms around me, just because we are in a pub, I usually give him an extremely frosty "Excuse me? Do you mind?" and take a step back.

I think it really is down to some guys who don't understand that women really don't like to be grabbed and touched, and that it is their fault for doing so, not the woman's fault for objecting.

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 1:57:12 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
See that's how I feel about it too. I'm not going to freak out about a handshake, a hug or even a slap on the back. I wouldn't necessarily mind that much out if somebody gently touched my neck without asking, though I'd consider that a little bit rude. But hitting me, or touching my genitalia, or grabbing my neck in a shock hold without contact being ok-ed by me first is just pushing it way too far.

I still wouldn't make a scene about it... hell... it's not like it'd be that big of a deal for me personal... I just make it VERY clear that such things are not appreciated by me, and I would mark you off at that point as a person I cannot trust in any way shape or form, and wouldn't want anything more to do with you. However, I wouldn't be freaked out or traumatized in any way by any of that stuff... just annoyed and offended.

Oh how so very reasonable. I gotta admit, the reason I've decided I'll NEVER be in such a space is that it sounds about as much fun as that old game, Operation. I can just imagine myself simply trying to navigate a crowded room to get a seat or something but each sub has this alarm on her... touch the sub and the buzzer goes off. Oh, and when the buzzer goes off the cops come. Somehow I'm not feeling exactly "safe" in this environment. Yes, yes. I get it. 90% of you would never consider such a thing. It's not you that I'm worried about.

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women brush up against my cock. When you're standing closely or maybe even getting a little jostled these things happen. Were I to cry out bloody murder do you think anyone would care?


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 2:01:38 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
See that's how I feel about it too. I'm not going to freak out about a handshake, a hug or even a slap on the back. I wouldn't necessarily mind that much out if somebody gently touched my neck without asking, though I'd consider that a little bit rude. But hitting me, or touching my genitalia, or grabbing my neck in a shock hold without contact being ok-ed by me first is just pushing it way too far.

I still wouldn't make a scene about it... hell... it's not like it'd be that big of a deal for me personal... I just make it VERY clear that such things are not appreciated by me, and I would mark you off at that point as a person I cannot trust in any way shape or form, and wouldn't want anything more to do with you. However, I wouldn't be freaked out or traumatized in any way by any of that stuff... just annoyed and offended.

Oh how so very reasonable. I gotta admit, the reason I've decided I'll NEVER be in such a space is that it sounds about as much fun as that old game, Operation. I can just imagine myself simply trying to navigate a crowded room to get a seat or something but each sub has this alarm on her... touch the sub and the buzzer goes off. Oh, and when the buzzer goes off the cops come. Somehow I'm not feeling exactly "safe" in this environment. Yes, yes. I get it. 90% of you would never consider such a thing. It's not you that I'm worried about.

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women brush up against my cock. When you're standing closely or maybe even getting a little jostled these things happen. Were I to cry out bloody murder do you think anyone would care?


i think you might be blowing it out of proportion.

heh heh, puns too ;)

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 8/14/2012 2:02:18 PM >

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 2:39:52 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Oh how so very reasonable. I gotta admit, the reason I've decided I'll NEVER be in such a space
is that it sounds about as much fun as that old game, Operation. I can just imagine myself
simply trying to navigate a crowded room to get a seat or something but each sub has this alarm
on her... touch the sub and the buzzer goes off. Oh, and when the buzzer goes off the cops come.
Somehow I'm not feeling exactly "safe" in this environment. Yes, yes. I get it. 90% of you would
never consider such a thing. It's not you that I'm worried about.

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women
brush up against my cock. When you're standing closely or maybe even getting a little jostled
these things happen. Were I to cry out bloody murder do you think anyone would care?


I think what you're missing here, Jeff, is the intent of the person touching.

I've never attended a play place, but I get the impression that there is an awful lot of nudity
and intimacy going on. How would you feel if Carol were to be sitting naked, quietly minding
her own business while waiting for you to summon her up to play, and Mr Random Dude saunters
by and takes the liberty of purposely and intentionally touching her.
Better yet, how do you think Carol should respond?

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RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 2:44:20 PM   
UllrsIshtar


Posts: 3693
Joined: 7/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women brush up against my cock. When you're standing closely or maybe even getting a little jostled these things happen. Were I to cry out bloody murder do you think anyone would care?



I've seen people at clubs get very upset, angry and annoyed and intentional inappropriate touching.

I've never seen anybody get upset at accidental or involuntary touching of any kind.

To use an extreme example... some couple is scening with the sub tied down with open legs. You're walking around and trip over something, slip and end up falling with your face straight into her crotch.
Nobody that I know of, and no club that I've even been to would become upset or mad at you for that. Nobody would accuse you of inappropriate behavior, or attack you. Instead, people, including the top of the scene, would help you up and ask you if you're ok.

However, that same scene, and you're walking around or standing by to watch, and you purposefully reach out to touch the bound sub between the legs without permission... at that point I wouldn't be shocked if you'd end up with a broken wrist... and if not that, at the very least a VERY pissed off top, sub, DM, and probably an eviction from the club.

Edited to add: In the vanilla situations where people have accidentally brushed against your cock, would you have reacted the same way if somebody who was being pushed against you by the crowed proceeded to loosen your belt, unzip your fly and stick their hand in your pants without asking... or at least flirting with you first?
There's a difference between accidentally touching somebody and purposefully invading their personal space.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/14/2012 2:48:30 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Touching without permission - 8/14/2012 2:51:19 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

I am kind of curious though. As a fairly regular event in crowded situations I've had women brush up against my cock.


Shut the fuck up Jeff, or you will get us all caught.




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Profile   Post #: 40
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