RE: Damn Bush! (Full Version)

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srahfox -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 6:37:17 AM)

Besides I do believe Merc said he hated that he voted for Bush. I would guess (I could be wrong) from some of his other posts at he would not like someone in office that is likely to take some more of our freedoms away. Merc I know you don't need my help but That stuck to me so I has to get it out.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 8:32:18 AM)

srahfox,
I absolutely hated voting for Bush. I started this thread with the title Damn Bush! There are many things that I disagree with Bush and the Republicans, but in the final analysis there are many more things that I disagree with Kerry and the Democrats. We need a third party or we need the Libertarians to be a more viable option.
I'll confess that my perspective regarding the Muslim terrorists and the war in general is biased. I had an appointment at 8:30 AM on 9/11/01 that was postponed until 11:30 that day. As a result I was on the NJ Turnpike instead of on the 97th Floor of Tower II of the World Trade Center. Many, many, many, friends and my business partner never got out. My "prejudices" are based on that day, and the research I conducted since. I'd won't lie and give that old; "some of my best friends are Muslims" line. That's not because of a conscience effort, but I just don't know or come in contact with anyone who identifies himself as a Muslim. When in NYC I did have many Muslim acquaintances who I sought out after 9/11. It was they who gave me a copy of the Koran, and they were embarrassed to admit that a large faction of their religion takes the verses of the Koran literally.
I guess I am cursed with a mind that is highly retentive on the banal and trivial. Having 16 years of Catholic education literally beat the bible into me. I also read some books that compare the Bible and Koran. Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" was also a good reference.
And just to be clear. I read these books and try to gain different perspectives to test my beliefs and positions. I am NOT religious. Of course, as I get older I'm may, like W. C. Fields, be reading the Bible to "find a loophole". Prior to 9/11 I wanted to know why the Christians and fundamentalists in particular behaved as they did. And since 9/11 I wanted to gain the same knowledge base of the Muslims through the Koran. With my current perspective my position is that the polarized fringes of BOTH of these groups are similarly dangerous. But as I've said a number of ways in a number of posts, the BIG difference is that currently the fundamentalist Christians do not recruit or train their followers to fly a plane into a building or blow up a school or have 13-16 years olds strap explosives to their bodies.

I've been to some Bible search sites. I'll send them to you directly. I think this tread along with the "Damn Liberal" thread has run it's course.



Barbara -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 8:37:50 AM)

Here is how I feel about what happened across America on November 2 2004.
This happened because America made the same choice Germany made in
1932. That's all. It's as simple-- and as complicated-- as that. A
majority of Germans never voted Nazis into office the first time.
Hitler was appointed chancellor through secret, shady dealings, not
elected. And later votes did give his party a majority. He appealed
to fear, to primitive terror and superstition and hatred and
prejudice, to the very worst in the human soul. And by choosing him,
Germans left the body of civilized nations, of civilized people.
They turned away from their own humanity.
But they did turn back, and they were lucky to have the time and the
chance to do so. Now, Americans can never point the finger at
Germany again for its evil past. Because we will have our own-- if
anyone is around to have a future at all.

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up.--Martin Niemoeller

Barbie



Mercnbeth -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 8:58:12 AM)

Lady Angelika (sorry about the mis-spelling-I'll accept any punishment, passed on to beth of course, that you deem appropriate.)

I don't see the conflict or the irony regarding living as a BDSM practitioner and my references to the Muslim Koran. I'm also Italian/Sicilian, over 40, agnostic with atheistic leaning, practically bald, opinionated, college educated, live near the beach in a place that never sees snow, who makes his living in the banking/finance industry; should any of that conflict or interfere? I deliberately avoided commentary with the quotes, and in fact I posted them in response to your inquiry questioning if any such quotes existed. They did - they do.

I've already posted on this thread that I do not currently have any fiends who identify themselves or let it be know to me that they are Muslim. My position is with a people, and even in that context, with an extremist people; not an individual person. I respect you and your Muslim friends with whom you have a "very deep inter personal relationships". Reading the Koran, I too see where it can be, as you say "in certain ways", a very beautiful faith. Know that I agree with you. It's the extremists who treat the versus I quoted and read the Koran as a mandate from their god to kill and destroy that I cast my blanket statement.



srahfox -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 11:01:51 AM)

It's always the extreamist that give something a bad name. I only know Muslims because I friend of mine if marring one. If not for that I would never had met any. I believe that most orginized realigons have to potential to be beautiful, but they are usually warped to fit into somesones ideas.
I have an uncle who moved 9/10, otherwise he would now be dead. I don't know how many people I have heard say something very simular.
I wish we did have more than two viable options, anything would be great at this point.
Merc, thanks for answering my biblical questions. I went to Christian schol for a little while, but I have mostly left that behind. When I hit 16 and I tallied up my life I just couldn't reconsile it with the Christian God. I still can't.
I agree. I think this post has outlived itself.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 11:19:33 AM)

Barbie -

What a pity and shame to compare the US to Nazi Germany. Who has been killed on our streets? Who has been sent to camps? Who are "they" coming for? Who are the "they"?

This topic should die - but this naive and offensive position can not be ignored.

Just so the "they" is spread around. Let me point out to you how the other choice we had on Tuesday handled a couple of 'lifestyle' issues.

Amazingly, it was the Democrats -- the ones who support gay marriage -- who used the gay issue for political advantage, most famously when Kerry gay-baited Mary Cheney during the third debate.

The one toss-up Senate seat lost by the Republicans was Pete Coors in Colorado, where the Democrats did not hesitate to run commercials of a bacchanalian gay festival in Canada sponsored by Coors Brewing Co.

The United States, is not a perfect place. George Bush is not my perfect president. But I will not be ashamed or apologize for my great relief that I live here. In response to someone who disagreed with me and served in the military I thanked them and posted this. Perhaps the next time you compare the US with the Nazi's you should consider these points.

You have a country to be proud of. Imagine if in 1940 Nazi Germany was as strong and without another strong adversary. Go further back to Imperial Japan, England, France, or even ancient Greece and Rome and every time a political entity could "take over the world" they did - or tried their best to do so.
The United States is the only county in the history of the world who hasn't attempted global conquest with the ablility to do so. The US did not gain any territory after either WWI or WWII. Indeed, we rebuilt Japan and most of western Europe. We try to influence. We send over businesses to exploit opportunities but we do not militarily conquer and occupy. Even in Iraq we are trying out best to form a democracy. How much easier would it be if we just went there, and Saudi Arabia and the other places floating on oil and said - "It's Ours!"? Then the world and the self-loathers who live here like yourself would have a reason to hate. Maybe that's ultimately why there is resentment. Because if it were them, history shows that's exactly what they would do.




srahfox -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 11:40:42 AM)

No, we are not like nazi germany, we aren't perfect, but no where near that bad. Yes we have had consentration camps were tons of japanese americans were herded up and imprisioned. I hope this is something we would not do now. Really if someone feels America is like Nazi germany.
Don't live here.
I do feel this qoute applies to this post
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the
people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." -- Thomas
Jefferson

Maybe we should just call this quits



Barbara -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 12:06:15 PM)

I am sure I didn't word my post correctly.
I, by no means, meant to compare our country with Nazi Germany.
I am proud to live in a country where our freedoms are countless.
I wouldn't trade that for anything.
I meant that many people may have voted for Bush out of fear. Some may have simply chosen the lesser of the two evils, some may be firm believers in one or the other-but, for many, it was out of fear. I am scared about our future because I see too many religious fundamentalist groups given far too much power...this is not the direction our country should be heading. This is regression. Just using Howard Stern being taken off the air is proof enough of these religious groups having too much power...this is scary....looking back at my post I can see where it could have been misunderstood-and for that, I apologize.
Barbie



NoCalOwner -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 1:30:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Wake up and smell the coffee people!

Yeah, I know, I know, I'm drinking the coffee.

Early next year, I will be joining several relatives in fleeing the US for British Columbia. It started out as just my household, but every relative we've talked to about it, on either side of the family, has wanted to come along. So now we've got an MD, an RN, three computer scientists and a businessman bailing, along with a few kids. Oh, and possibly a biochemist also. Median adult in the group has an IQ of 142 and a masters degree. Can you say "brain drain," folks? Not to mention a couple hundred thou a year in taxes headed north.

We're willing to do our duty and watch curling over some timbits and homo milk, but spare us the poutine, eh?

As long as I'm wildly digressing, I found a fun, related site:
http://www.marryanamerican.ca

"CANADIANS: TAKE THE PLEDGE

Should George W. Bush be declared the official winner of the November 2 election and be re-installed as acting President of the United States, I the undersigned, a Canadian citizen, pledge to liberate, through the legal and binding act of marriage, a willing citizen of the United States of America, of a gender of my choosing, and with one or all of the following political leanings:

1. discouraged Democrat,
2. reformed Republican,
3. apolitical with limited world-domination tendencies.

In addition, I promise to help my new Yankee spouse to adapt to life in the great white north, keeping them safe from (gratuitous) invasion of privacy, and to provide him/her with a reasonable supply of Timbits."

So far they have almost 800 Canadians prepared to marry Americans to help them get out. Unfortunately, I would be considered a bigamist if I took any of them up on it, but I'd be perfectly delighted to meet any kinky folks in the greater Vancouver area.



[image]local://upfiles/44117/899632A2DE1F419C9639161BA1577BE9.jpg[/image]



Estring -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 11:06:21 PM)

The Japanese were not put in concentration camps. They were put in internment camps. There is a big difference there.



Estring -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/4/2004 11:14:09 PM)

Actually Barbara, your post was exactly what you meant to say. I want to know what religious fundamentalist groups have taken over this country? Are you being forced to observe any certain religion? The truth is that Hitler took over Germany because of a "secular" belief called Nazism. They eradicated religion, especially the Jewish religion.
And no one forced Howard Stern off the air. He took the money and is running to satellite radio. And by the way, I am a big fan of Howard. I remember him ranting against the FCC when Clinton was in office. Is that Bush's fault too?



Thanatosian -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 1:11:36 AM)

Gloria - in regards to the dinosaurs - I have a friend who grew up in texas - on his parents property is a stream bed where fossilized dinosaur footprints have been found - and mixed in with those dinosaur prints are human prints - he always laughs when some scientist comes out saying the dinosaurs lived millions of years before humans

another thing he pointed out was, in the early days (of the bible) people lived to be near 1000 or so years old - he then points out that some reptiles continue growing throughout their lives - think how big a 1000 yeat old komodo dragon would be - can you say dinosuar? - my friends theory is that, just as mankinds lifespan has gotten shorter, so has that of the animals (he was born and raised southern baptist btw)

merc - gotta love it - you get one scientist on one tv channel saying "we know how old these bones are because of the geological strata they were found in", flip the channel and theres another saying "we know how old this dirt layer is because of the bones found in it" HUH?!?

bluesmate - was meant as a generic 'you' referencing all liberals, not as a personal 'you' directed specifically towards the collarme user bluesmate



stef -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 3:50:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

The Japanese were not put in concentration camps. They were put in internment camps. There is a big difference there.

The 120,000 or so people who were forcibly removed from their homes to live in those camps might disagree with your opinion.

~stef



BluesMate -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 4:55:10 AM)

deletedeletedelete



LadyAngelika -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 4:56:41 AM)

quote:

No, we are not like nazi germany, we aren't perfect, but no where near that bad.


Unfortunately, to the rest of the world, the US administration doesn't seem too far off.

I hold very strong opinions that the Bushes and their allies are war instigators, a terrorists and criminals but that doesn't always fly over very well. But I have the right to my opinion.

I do however distinguish the US administration from the US people. I actually like most USers that I meet.

- LA




stef -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 5:01:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I hold very strong opinions that the Bushes and their allies are war instigators, a terrorists and criminals but that doesn't always fly over very well. But I have the right to my opinion.

It's an opinion that many Americans share.

~stef



LadyAngelika -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 5:05:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Lady Angelika (sorry about the mis-spelling-I'll accept any punishment, passed on to beth of course, that you deem appropriate.)


Apology accepted Merc. I don't see the need to punish;) I wish however that you would try and befriend some modern day Muslims that take the Koran with a grain of salt like the Catholics do the Bible, etc.

I talked a good hour last night with a Jordanian friend of mine as I joined him while he broke his Ramadan fast. I told him about our exchanges (not the context in which it is happening... I think he *already* has a crush on me, gotta be careful not to get him all riled up!). He told me that any Muslim that uses that "infidel" type language is viewed by others as a moron, much in the same way that we, in this Western society, view extremist right wing Christians kill in the name of God or another cult like religion.

quote:

I don't see the conflict or the irony regarding living as a BDSM practitioner and my references to the Muslim Koran.


There is no direct conflict. All I was saying was that you are fighting for a greater acceptance of "your kind" while talking very negatively of "another kind". I just found it a little ironic.

I'm not making any illusions that I'm going to change anyone's minds with my post but I do take these issues to heart.

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 5:11:33 AM)

quote:

Early next year, I will be joining several relatives in fleeing the US for British Columbia.


Very cool! BC is beautiful.


quote:

We're willing to do our duty and watch curling over some timbits and homo milk, but spare us the poutine, eh?


Yuck, yuck and yum! You can have all the timbits & homo milk and I'll have the poutine!

quote:

So far they have almost 800 Canadians prepared to marry Americans to help them get out.


I'm taking applicants actually ;) Include bank statements and educational degrees please! <weg>

- LA



sting516 -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 4:11:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

it would appear we here in the US should expect more terrorist acts here in the US, while they bleed us in Iraq...maybe i should see about moving to Canada, out of the line of fire.


I have this lovely cage... ;)

- LA



sounds rather delicious, Lady Angelika!!!

sting



sting516 -> RE: Damn Bush! (11/5/2004 4:17:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

srahfox,
I absolutely hated voting for Bush. I started this thread with the title Damn Bush! There are many things that I disagree with Bush and the Republicans, but in the final analysis there are many more things that I disagree with Kerry and the Democrats. We need a third party or we need the Libertarians to be a more viable option.


In the previous two presidential elections, there was a third party candidate...twice Perot helped deliver the elections to Bill Clinton, and in 2000, Ralph Nader took the election away from Al Gore (based on his Florida showing)...i wasn't thrilled with the choices we had, but i prefer the two party system, as opposed to a third party messing with an election's result. Though how different a country might we be looking at now if that Supreme Court decision went 5-4 the other way?

sting



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