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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/5/2004 5:10:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		sting,
Appreciate that and agree. I remember arguing about the problems having only a 2 party government way back in college. All I needed to convince me that it was best was by looking toward Italy who have as many parties as varieties of pasta, and change government every other week.

Also your reference to the impact of the 3rd party on all elections going back to 1988 is a good point. It's the un-published reason that Bush was the first president to receive an electorate majority since 1988. All other years had a 3rd party candidate which enabled the winner to win without 50% of the popular vote. They are making it sound like an accomplishment this year, when in reality it was caused by no body being interested in Nader this time.

Thanks for the perspective.

(in reply to sting516)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/6/2004 9:09:32 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		A few people on here have called Bush a terrorist. Though I hate him and voted against him, I wouldn't call him a terrorist, but this is a cute cartoon that's relevant to the question:

http://piratesandemperors.com/

(in reply to srahfox)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/8/2004 8:44:46 AM   
dixiedumpling


Posts: 456
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: southeast Mississippi
Status: offline 		That's thought provoking, Sting. How would President Al Gore have responded to 9/11? Thoughts?

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dixiedumpling

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/8/2004 9:02:37 AM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		As long as we're trying to scry for possible futures based upon altered history (where is Harry Turtledove when you need him!), would there have even been a 9/11 if Gore was president?

~stef

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/8/2004 10:10:22 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl
would there have even been a 9/11 if Gore was president?

~stef


Of course. It always follows 9/10.

Honestly, with all of the planning that had to have taken place to pull of an operation like that on 9/11, I imagine that the terrorists had this attack in mind for quite a long time. I believe it would have occured regardless of who was in office.

As far as who would have handled it better? I think Al Gore would have done the same things in regards to our invasion of Afghanistan, but I believe he would have had the good judgement to see that there was no connection between Al Quaida and Saddam. I think we would still be in Afghanistan, but I don't believe that Desert Storm II would have kicked off.

Either way.. King George II is in power...we're in Iraq, wether we like it or not...and we will be there for a very, very long time.

~Thorns


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 1:21:08 PM   
dally


Posts: 108
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hello!
Well, I must say, I am so very relieved and truly happy that President Bush was re elected! I feel like America has truly spoken... no matter how much Kerry fought and Moore's outrageous attacks on this administration, and all the celebs and their "anti-Bush campaigning" none of that was able to blur the truth to a good majority of the american people...I believe President Bush is an honorable man, I particularly appreciate that he is frank, and does what he says he will do, and says what he means....he may not be the most articulate president, but he speaks from his heart, and that is something very rare in Washington.
I totally agree with his stance on the war and pretty much on everything else. I am in this lifestyle but i am pretty conservative in my beliefs. I don't wish to impose my beliefs on anyone else, and don't think President Bush has tried imposing his on others either...Liberals tend to get pretty offended when someone mentions God, and of course i am not speaking of all Liberals, but i have known a good deal, who will get very offended and automatically assume that one who believes in God is out to convert the world and is a bible thumping lunatic....well, I am republican, I am conservative, and yes i believe in God, and yet i have never tried imposing my views or beliefs down anyone's throat...to each his own. But, with that said, I don't believe in this "anything goes" attitude that many have taken.

Anyhow....these are my two cents worth as far as the President....another thing i'd like to add, it really bothers me to see so many disrespect the president of the united states the way so many, not just here, but every where you turn you find so many people insulting him and making the nastiest comments ...i realize we have freedom of speech, of course, and we all have different opinions, but just wish people would be a little more respectful of our nations president, no matter if he is a different party or has different beliefs he deserves respect, as we all do.

~hugs~
dally

quote:

"And those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music" - Angela Monet

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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 1:57:49 PM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dally
it really bothers me to see so many disrespect the president of the united states the way so many, not just here, but every where you turn you find so many people insulting him and making the nastiest comments ...i realize we have freedom of speech, of course, and we all have different opinions, but just wish people would be a little more respectful of our nations president, no matter if he is a different party or has different beliefs he deserves respect...


Another Republican president had something interesting to say on the topic:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 2:29:53 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoCalOwner

Another Republican president had something interesting to say on the topic:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Oh, you beat me to it!

I'll just have to leave this and this instead

~stef

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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 3:16:08 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dally

Liberals tend to get pretty offended when someone mentions God, and of course i am not speaking of all Liberals, but i have known a good deal, who will get very offended and automatically assume that one who believes in God is out to convert the world and is a bible thumping lunatic....well, I am republican, I am conservative, and yes i believe in God, and yet i have never tried imposing my views or beliefs down anyone's throat...to each his own.


We (the we I know) doesn't object to -god- we object to god in politics. I myself object on the grounds that if someone in a position of political power includes their god, and their relgious system (overtly) into their governance, then that stystem and that god are being given priviledge over all other stystems.

I aknowledge that to some people religion forms and shapes everything that they do. However, I think that seeking to explicitly invovle your religion in your governing is to priviledge those who follow your religion and belief system over all others.

Additionally, though, how is imposing his religious/moral system's beliefes toward marriage on the entire country NOT forcing his beliefs on others?

Too, I think it's wonderful that we (the ones of us in the US :) ) where we CAN feel free to criticize, lambast, and insult our president to our hearts content. I don't particularly agree with bashing him as a person, but I love that we have the freedom to do that, without fear of retribution for the government.

Edited to add: the Roosevelt quote is being added to my lexicon. Thank you!

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 11/9/2004 3:17:08 PM >

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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 3:34:30 PM   
dally


Posts: 108
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hello again,
it's simply ridiculous to even think that everyone has to stand by the president since we live in a democracy where fortunately we all have the right to our own opinions and we have freedom of speech. No one has said that you can't say what's on your mind....or that you have to like the president or his politics.... it's absurd to even assume that. My opinion remains however, that anyone who runs around resorting to insults and personal bashing is usually lacking education as well as, imho, class. He is after all, our president, wether you voted for him or not and there really is no reason to disrespect him or any one for that matter solely on the fact that you don't agree with them.

quote:

You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children's children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done -- Ronald Reagan

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 3:45:37 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		~stef

I pulled up the two links you referenced. From the first:

quote:

Fuck the South. Fuck 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they'd stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep...
and ...

Well this gravy train is fucking over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bullshit and shove it up your ass.

And no, you can't have your fucking convention in New York next time. Fuck off.


It seems the writer has become a caricature of far right. Will this position gain voters? As much as this side hates to accept it - they lost! They have to find more votes not further polarize the opposition and insure another generation of closed minded people. If I were a staunch right wing wacko - I'd publish the entire article, point to it and say; "See - this kind of person is who would have been in power if we voted for Kerry!"

And from the second; just as polarizing but without as many curse words:

quote:

Here's a clue: we are not your enemies; we are your countrymen. Your enemies are the greedy multinationals that the Republican Party bends over backwards to accommodate. Incidentally, most of them are based in Blue states, as are their Republican owners and major shareholders.


I'm afraid that if either of these is indicative how the other side hopes to win next time around there is no hope. Juvenile name calling, finger pointing, and shouting "you're dumb!" at the Bush voters won't work. The majority of the population voted FOR him! Many, like myself didn't want to. The Republicans will have a better candidate next time around. Just "Not Bush" will not be enough in 2008 when a Bush won't be running. Granted, the "Not Bush" campaign got within 60,000 votes in Ohio from wining this time around, but the gap will be much larger without him.

An education process for the people that Democrats are not all left wing liberals from NYC, Boston, and LA. That Democrats don't think Michael Moore speaks for them. Or even more basic. How about just stepping back and saying; "Damn - I guess most of the country doesn't want want socialism in the US defined as a 'government program for EVERY ill - for EVERY person - for EVERY evil'; real or perceived.

I am convinced that the pundits have it wrong. It was NOT morality that won/lost this election. It was the image of the option, somewhat conveyed by your links, that the majority didn't want.

Next time around I hope we have a candidate who will:

1) Won't raise my taxes
2) Doesn't have a track record and voting record of US Security 'flip-flopping'
3) Stays out of my bedroom
4) Stays out of my boardroom
5) Puts human needs and human concerns ahead of animal
6) Tells me how good he/she is versus how bad the other guy is
7) Accepts the failure of social engineering via quota systems and eliminates them
8) Prohibition didn't work for alcohol it's not working for drugs - make the laws concerning drugs consistent with alcohol and tobacco, and tax and regulate it in the Scandinavian model.
9) Seal the borders from illegal aliens. They can use all the ex-DEA agents from #8.
10) Based on history I have no confidence in the government to manage my investment portfolio. Let me have access to at least some of my Social Security money. It would be mandatory that the amount can not be less then what is currently taken as 'tax'.

And before anyone points out the issues here that Bush fails miserably on - I assure you that I know them. One more time - for me - I couldn't vote for Kerry only because he wasn't Bush. Because what Kerry was and what he planned on doing with the government and expanding governmental influence was much more worthy of avoiding.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 11/9/2004 4:01:45 PM >

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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 3:49:56 PM   
LadySonelle


Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dally

Hello!

snip
Anyhow....these are my two cents worth as far as the President....another thing i'd like to add, it really bothers me to see so many disrespect the president of the united states the way so many, not just here, but every where you turn you find so many people insulting him and making the nastiest comments ...i realize we have freedom of speech, of course, and we all have different opinions, but just wish people would be a little more respectful of our nations president, no matter if he is a different party or has different beliefs he deserves respect, as we all do.

~hugs~
dally

I agree with you completely! Since the Republicans take the stance that they are more well versed in matters of morality and respect in public discourse, and I tend to agree with that... I shall follow the example which they have set Me. After all, one ought to lead by example as well as edict!

I shall extend every atom of courtesy, respect and public deference to President Bush and the Office he holds, that the Republicans extended to President Clinton and the Office he held. I shall take their example as My guide during this President's term in office.

Lady Sonelle

quote:

"And those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music" - Angela Monet



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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 3:57:11 PM   
dally


Posts: 108
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I agree completely, it is wonderful that we are able to discuss this issue here, to go out in the streets and protest against our president, and not get tortured and killed for it...it is why i love this great country of ours and feel the necessity to protect our freedom above all else....so, as for freedom of speech i totally agree with you.
On the whole gay marriage thing, I truly don't have much of an opinion, i don't see how that is "imposing his religious beliefs" but as i said, i really don't care much either way, yes i personally believe that marriage should be sacred a union between a man and a woman, the way it has always been...however, i can also understand two people loving eachother and wanting the same rights as everyone else...so, i can't say i personally am for it or against it, and honestly it's not an issue that concerns me nearly as much as for example fighting terrorists in the middle east...I appreciate the fact that this is a nation where freedom of religion or the lack of is respected, however I personally feel this is a nation under God, and we , as a society have morals and values to uphold.

As far as the Bush Bashing is concerned, I can say this, I voted for Bill Clinton the first time around, and was deeply disappointed in him and his administration, however, i respected him as our nations president and i would never go around attacking him personally or slandering his character simply because i did not agree with his politics and was not happy with his administration....do i have the right to do it, of course i do...do i have the right to call him names and get all nasty about it, no question, of course i can.....but i choose to restrain myself from insulting someone who was the leader of our country. I think he deserves respect, as does president Bush.tyvm

quote:

To sit back hoping that someday, someway, someone will make things right is
to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last--but eat you he will.
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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/9/2004 10:46:10 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		If I recall correctly, several posts that have graced these message boards dealt with respect. A fair majority stated quite clearly that respect is earned. President Bush has done little to earn my respect. He has had several DUIs, a history of alcohol-related incidents, cocaine use, questionable service to his country in a time of war, presided over several companies that ended in bankruptcy, was a C student, and has huge conflicts of interest that may be clouding his judgement. I don't see how his pre-presidential record has earned my respect.

How about the last 4 years? Appointment of Unocal executives to positions in the EPA? Removal of regulations that kept many pollutants out of our air and water, preserved wetlands and wildlife habitats? Awarding of no bid contracts to Halliburton? Resurrection of the Star Wars program? Attempting to amend the Constitution to fit his religious beliefs? Again, how do any of these actions earn him respect? President Bush has earned all the criticism he receives. Perhaps the respect that republicans and neocons heap upon this president is due to his ability to stick to a course of action? I Agree that it definately can be a strong point, as long as you make good, sound, informed decisions. If I decide something and it turns out that I was wrong, I change my course of action. I would be a fool to keep making the same mistake over and over again. There's a distinct line between being steadfast and being arrogantly stubborn.

I'm curious about the respect extended to President Clinton by the republican party. Was this respect shown in spending millions of taxpayer dollars to Independent Council in an investigation of Whitewater and stains on a blue dress? Did Hillary Clinton receive the respect from the republican party each time she was called a bitch? Or when their daughter was compared to a dog? The NeoCon cry for impeachment could be heard just a bit more loudly than Rush Limbaugh's delusional banter.

As far as "America has truly spoken". Yes. The majority of the people who voted, voted for Bush. I won't dispute this election. I am disappointed in the state of the Union, however. When the majority of a society disregards the structure on which it was founded, the society ultimately fails. The majority has allowed corruption to continue. Why? "It's not my problem" "It's not my job" "Its not my responsibility". Perhaps the corruption in our system isn't even noticed by the majority as the majority is only concerned with what is happening in their own little hygenic universe.

If you think I am being unfair, just watch people on the freeway on their way to work. Watch as they cut you off because their time is more valueable than yours. Your safety isn't even as valueable as their time. Watch people in a store on Christmas Eve and how they will trample some woman in order to get the last Furreal friend from the shelf. Ask someone, "How are you?" and see them get flustered in searching for a response to such an odd question. This is your majority and the majority says, "Me first".

I've had people tell me to move to another country if I don't like how the system works. Yes. That's a viable option. I have seen how some other country's operate and could be very happy there. ( I hear there's work in Bangledesh, sewing Nikes...but I think there's a maximum age restriction of 14 years old.) But I am a proud American citizen and I choose to live in the coutry of my birth. I also choose to speak freely, bear arms, hold assembly, and criticize my governmental officials when I feel they are royally screwing the pooch. I won't be moving to another country anytime soon. I would rather do what I can to defend my country from its domestic enemies and get the system working again. So for now, I'll wait the 4 long years until next election , vote for whatever propositions or candidates I feel would best serve the interests of the United States. I just hope that our society will be able to overcome the "Me first" mentality by then.

~Thorns




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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/10/2004 8:11:57 AM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline
quote:

He has had several DUIs, a history of alcohol-related incidents


these criteria reminded me of a piece I saw once where it asked the person to choose between 3 people for a leadership position

#1 drank excessively, smoked cigars, was known to be blunt and abrasive in manner, cursed often, and was rumored to be a womaniser
#2 also drank, smoked cigarettes, and was also reputed to be a womaniser
#3 was a teetotaler, had artistic aspirations, didnt smoke, and was unfailingly polite

the 3 candidates were, #1 - Winston Churchill, #2 - FDR, and #3 - Hitler

quote:

questionable service to his country in a time of war


at least he served during time of war, unlike the Democratic party hero Bill Clinton who actively sought out ways to avoid serving (referncing letter written to British company asking for a position with them so as to avoid draft)

quote:

cocaine use


if I am not mistaken, didnt Clinton admit to smoking marijuana, which is also an illegal drug?

quote:

conflicts of interest that may be clouding his judgement


and spending your time thinking about the next intern you are going to have service you orally wont cloud your judgement? or at least affect how much time you spend making 'important' decisions?

quote:

presided over several companies that ended in bankruptcy


as opposed to being involved in banking sccandals and land trust scandals and other chicanery?



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RE: Damn Bush! - 11/10/2004 8:37:39 AM   
dally


Posts: 108
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		well, as i said before, no one has said that you can't say what you feel about president Bush or anyone else for that matter...obviously this "is" after all a free country and thank goodness for that!

Mine was simply an observation....yes , I agree there were many republicans who harshly criticized Clinton and did so in a very vulgar and nasty manner, i didn't think that was necessary either. As far as the president earning respect or not, I can't share your view, I don't believe someone has to earn the respect, i think respect should be given regardless, doesn't mean one has to like or agree with the person but as one respects themself they should project that to others.....to rant and rave about the presidents personal life and the fact he was an alcoholic and allegedly used or was addicted to cocaine is as useless as to accuse Clinton of being a pot head and dodging the draft, and even his womanizing, in my opinion, was really no ones business but his and his wife.

Bottom line here is that Bush won....America, indeed, has spoken, and I thank God for that each day. I believe he has done the very best given the circumstances, the economy, contrary to liberal belief, has actually recovered incredibly well, the war in the middle east I believe is a just war, and I'm glad he has faced it head on instead of brushing it under the rug for another 8 yrs....I am very happy Saddam is not in power, wether he had WMD or not I believe he was a WMD himself, and was a potential threat, and a tyrant maniac with so power in his hands is always a threat...He tortured and killed so many and he harbored and funded terrorists, so if we are able to bring some form of democracy and peace to other places in the world I think it benefits us as well in the long run.
I don't pretend to know about politics, I just try to keep an open mind and watch the news and read the paper, and I try to keep somewhat well informed, but basically I just believe our President is a good person who has made some changes and has confronted huge challenges and has acted in the best interest of our country, despite the UN and is not out to gain "popularity" but to defend this country, which i feel is fundamental.

I've heard people say, if you don't like you can leave the country, and don't think that's right either...why should you or anyone have to leave the country simply because you're not satisfied with the current administration, after all, as you said in your post, in four years there will be other candidates and we will have the chance once again to choose who we think is better to lead this country.




quote:

"And those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music" -- Angela Monet

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/10/2004 10:06:04 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Thanatosian,

Heh. I like the 3 choices argument. Touche'. The only thing that I can say is that I don't believe that Churchill or FDR attempted to hypocritically pass legislation in the name of the "moral majority" while Hitler influenced his followers into beliving that they were the moral majority and set out to do "Gods work" via ethnic clensing.

Yes, President Bush did serve his country in a time of war. I'm sure that his Father's influence and the familty name ensured that he would never actually see combat, but yes. At least he did serve. Yes. Clinton smoked marijuana, but I don't believe he ever put anyone else's life at risk by sitting behind the wheel of a moving vehicle while under the influence.

I don't believe Clinton spent his time thinking about interns nearly as much as the conservative media machine would like you to believe. Clinton displayed his ability to make important decisions and showed good judgement in those decisions more often than not.

I can't comment on the validity of the accusations regarding Whitewater. As reported in the Wikipedia Encyclopedia, "The Clintons were cleared of any wrongdoing in two reports subsequently prepared by the San Francisco law firm of Pillsbury Madison and Sutro for the Resolution Trust Corporation, which was overseeing the bankruptcy of Madison Guaranty." So it appears that the Clintons were found innocent of any wrongdoing. Let it also be known that President Clinton initiated the Whitewater investigation, while President Bush has stymied any such investigations of his conduct.

Dally, I must say that I am very curious as to how the economy is in a recovery. What are you using to guage the strength of our economy?

I am also happy that Saddam is no longer in power. I would be happier had we gone into Iraq in order to enforce UN sanctions or stop human rights violations. Unfortunately, we didn't go in for those reasons. We went in because Iraq had ties to Al Quaida and the 9/11 terrorists. Well...that was the original reason, wasn't it? Even though most of the terrorists were Saudi Arabian citizens and Al Quaida operated primarily in Afghanistan and we have no evidence that there is any link to 9/11. Oh. Wait. A flip flop occured. We went in to capture WMDs, even though there is no evidence that he had any WMDs. Another flip flop. Oh. He had the intent to eventually make WMDs. So when I go to jury duty, should I cast my verdict as guilty, because someone didn't actually commit the crime in question, rather they may have had the intent on doing so? Now we seem to be justifying the means by saying we did it for the Iraqi people. To free them from opression and the horrors of Saddam's regime. flip flop. The same people that complained about the US involvement in Bosnia, Yugoslavia, Somalia, etc and blamed Clinton for those decisions, complaining about us being the "World Police" are now claiming that we have a responsibility to the world and we are fulfilling that responsibility by taking control from Saddam. Another flip flop.

Believe it or not, I'm an independant. I don't agree with a lot of things that some democrats stand for, just as I don't agree with a lot of things some republicans stand for. I do have some serious issues with being misled by my government. If there is a republican candidate presented that I feel would act in the best interests of the country, believe me, I'll vote for him/her. I have yet to see this President act in the best interest of the country and am astonished to see how many people believe that he has. If anyone has a solid argument, supported by evidence, regarding the great things he has done for the country, I would be more than happy to listen.

~Thorns

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Damn Bush! - 11/16/2004 3:14:58 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Yikes...I havent been around and I know this is probably opening old threads but hey...

quote:

ORIGINAL: strongnsubmissiv

.

Seems to me, the root cause of any war in history has always been the same:

Religion

sns


Religion does not kill. Man does.


********************************


"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 5, 2004

"God loves you, and I love you. And you can count on both of us as a powerful message that people who wonder about their future can hear." —George W. Bush, Los Angeles, Calif., March 3, 2004


"See, free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction." —George W. Bush, Milwaukee, Wis., Oct. 3, 2003


"I'm the commander — see, I don't need to explain — I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president." —George W. Bush, as quoted in Bob Woodward's "Bush at War"




_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 78
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