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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 6:43:11 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I mentioned The Heroes of Telemark earlier. Folks, come on! You've never seen Kirk Douglas beating back the Germans? A classic.

There's not as many russian jews as you might think in Norway, unless its up around Finnmark.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 7:08:14 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: punisher440

FR

I agree with most of what has been mentioned in previous posts.The Russians bled Germany out on the Eastern Front with some help of U.S. materials and the use of penal battalions in many cases[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtrafbat].Very few know or care to realize what Stalin did to his own countrymen.This was not something taught in our school books.

A mixture of U.S.,Great Britain,Canadian and some Free French,Polish and others handled Germany in the west.But in the Pacific,the U.S. bore the brunt of the fighting.Iwill admit it was to our advantage that there vast oceans separating the U.S. mainland from air and land attack and our factories were safe to build vast quantities of war material.

In the end,Hitler's incompetence cost Germany dearly.If he had finished off Great Britain before attacking Russia,the war would have taken a lot longer to end.If Germany had went ahead and finshed off the R.A.F. first and then started attacking cities,Germany would have had a very good chance of invading Great Britain.Remember much of Britain's much needed war material was left on Dunkirk's beaches during the retreat.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk] "The loss of materiel on the beaches was huge. The British Army left enough equipment behind to equip about eight to ten divisions. Left behind in France were, among huge supplies of ammunition, 880 field guns, 310 guns of large calibre, some 500 anti-aircraft guns, about 850 anti-tanks guns, 11,000 machine guns, nearly 700 tanks, 20,000 motorcycles and 45,000 motor cars and lorries.[44] Army equipment available at home was only just sufficient to equip two divisions. The British Army needed months to re-supply properly and some planned introductions of new equipment were halted while industrial resources concentrated on making good the losses." So if Germany had done a few things differently,the war would have been a lot longer and more deadly.

But if the French think they won the war,they are sadly mistaken and very wrong.It was the Big 3,Russia,Great Britain and the U.S.A. that bore the brunt of carrying out the war with help from Canada,Australia,China,India and some Free French,Poles and others.

Thanks for the link punisher440 and for that very obvious but un-thought of (by me anyway) bit of information. My grandad was killed at Dunkirk. My great grandfather in the battle of Somme. Both are buried on French soil and although I haven't yet been to the grave at Dunkirk, I have been to Somme.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 7:24:46 AM

OttersSwim

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The U.S. has 11 cemeteries in France where 66,033 of our countrymen are buried from both WWI and WWII.

Aisne-Marne, France
Brittany, France
Epinal, France
Lorraine, France
Meuse-Argonne, France
Normandy, France
Oise-Aisne, France
Rhone, France
Somme, France
St. Mihiel, France
Suresnes, France

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 8/18/2012 7:29:07 AM >

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 7:25:57 AM

punisher440

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You are welcome MariaB,and I and so many others owe so much to those that gave their all in service to their countries like your grandfather and great grandfather.I have a great uncle buried in France and a couple of cousins buried on islands in the Pacific that most have never heard of.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 8:55:14 AM

Missokyst

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I learned early on that history is told from the prospective of the victor. I remember my first history class.. which I believe they started teaching here in the US around grade 4, I asked something about indians (of which I claim some blood) and was told "just read the book". So I did, and about 10 others from the city library told from the ethnic side. I couldn't find more because there was not much at the time. So when topics came up in history again, occasionally I would gather the courage to speak up about non-school viewpoints. Needless to say history teachers were never fond of me. I doubt I ever got higher than a C in any history class until I got to college.

As for what we learned about the war.. mostly we were taught that WE won it. Yeah, we had help from the UK and Russia, and a bit from France who seemed to be overrun with Germans but had a decent underground. I never heard anyhing about Norway or any other European country participating ohter than just rolling over and becoming part of the snowball that was the party.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 8/18/2012 8:56:00 AM >

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 9:19:35 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The US provided or produced shipping that could haul tonnage equal to twice the combined TOTAL of the rest of the allied forces.

By 1943, yes, the US fleet had been expanded to twice the tonnage of the Nortraship fleet, although it remained significantly less modern until 1944. Unless you care to argue that the production might of the US changed everything in the last year and a half, then obviously your production depended on external shipping for a good long while. The US produced and supplied goods via the NY office of Nortraship up until the US was ready to risk its own maritime neutrality. The UK received about 70% of its gross tonnage via Nortraship. This all of course excludes the fact that even a fractional change of tonnage makes a huge difference in the middle of a war; the oil and steel alone would impact the effort immensely.

Again, I'm thinking team effort.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 9:28:36 AM

FrostedFlake

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I recall little or nothing being said about WW II while I was at school. On the other hand, I have read extensively. The crux of the matter seems to have been the Spitfire.

And Hugh Dowding.

Had the Royal Air Force been put down, even briefly, the bulk of Royal Navy would have been lost to the Luftwaffe while trying to stop the cross channel invasion. Without the Navy, the Battle of the Atlantic would have been over. Without the Atlantic supply line the English would have to choose between surrender or death. As impressive as the English are whenever the chips are down, it's tough to fight without bullets and bread.

This note intends no disparagement of the contributions of the Millions who did not fly over Southern England in the Summer of 1940.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 9:46:32 AM

MercTech

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History, as taught in most schools, is the history written by the victors and slanted to be what is currently politically correct.
You can find some WTF factoids that don't make it to the secondary school curriculum if you dig into some of the literature of the time. Some that stuck with me are:
One hot button issue from the American Revolution was the ban by the crown of colonization into the Ohio River Valley. It seems that the British Crown had signed a treaty with the Iroquois Confederation enforcing a ban on colonization in exchange for assistance in the French & Indian War.
The first time federal troops were used against citizens was in a revolt over high federal taxation (The Whiskey Rebellion). After the revolt was put down there was a large migration to what is now Mississippi, Tennessee, and Georgia in an attempt to get away from oppressive federal control. There was a massive move of working class to areas that were controlled by the Cherokee Council instead of the U.S. Government. I knew one history professor that was firmly convinced that the Trail of Tears was really a political move to consolidate control of what was then the southwestern territories more than an ethnic discrimination issue.
During the Civil War, the U.S. Navy was ordered to bombard New York City to put down riots over the draft policy. The largest complaint was the fact that if you were rich enough to pay a $350 fee, you could be exempt from being drafted.

There is always more to the story than makes it to the history books.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 10:27:55 AM

vincentML

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quote:

During the Civil War, the U.S. Navy was ordered to bombard New York City to put down riots over the draft policy. The largest complaint was the fact that if you were rich enough to pay a $350 fee, you could be exempt from being drafted.

Let's tell the rest of the story . . . beyond your anti government propaganda:

President Abraham Lincoln diverted several regiments of militia and volunteer troops from following up after the Battle of Gettysburg to control the city. The rioters were overwhelmingly working-class men, primarily ethnic Irish, resenting particularly that wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300 commutation fee to hire a substitute, were spared the draft.[4][5]

Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned ugly. At least 100 black people were estimated to have been killed. The conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool, commander of the Department of the East, stated on July 16, "Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it."[6] The military did not reach the city until after the first day of rioting, when mobs had already ransacked or destroyed numerous buildings, including public buildings and homes of abolitionist sympathizers, many black homes, and the Colored Orphan Asylum at 44th Street and Fifth Avenue, which was burned to the ground. The children were not harmed.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Draft_Riots

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 10:30:55 AM

MissToYouRedux

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I mentioned The Heroes of Telemark earlier. Folks, come on! You've never seen Kirk Douglas beating back the Germans? A classic.

You left out a young Richard Harris, before the hard living took its toll. Yum!

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 10:46:30 AM

vincentML

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quote:

The first time federal troops were used against citizens was in a revolt over high federal taxation (The Whiskey Rebellion).

Based on these rates, the average distiller was required to pay only a few dollars in liquor tax each year. But even an annual tax of $5 would have consumed a large percentage of the disposable income earned by farmers in the barter-based economy of western Pennsylvania. <SNIP>

The rebellion began in Pittsburgh during October of 1791 when a group of disguised farmers snatched a federal tax collector from his bed, and marched him five miles to a blacksmith shop where they stripped him of his clothes, and burned him with a poker. Over the next three years dozens of tax collectors were beaten, shot at, tarred and feathered, and otherwise terrorized, intimidated, and humiliated. The home and plantation of John Neville, the chief tax collector for southwestern Pennsylvania, were burned to the ground. <SNIP>

Two men, john mitchell and Philip Vigol, were found guilty of treason, and sentenced to hang. Seventeen defendants were convicted of lesser crimes, and sentenced to prison terms of various lengths. Upon learning that none of the convicted rebels were principally responsible for instigating the armed resistance, Washington pardoned each of them. <SNIP>

By extinguishing the Whiskey Rebellion, the U.S. government withstood a formidable challenge to its sovereignty. Preceded by shays's rebellion in 1786, and followed by fries's rebellion in 1799, the Whiskey Rebellion is distinguished by its size <SNIP>

The Whiskey Rebellion also occupies a distinguished place in American jurisprudence. Serving as the backdrop to the first treason trials in the United States, the Whiskey Rebellion helped delineate the parameters of this constitutional crime. Article III, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution defines treason as "levying War" against the United States. During the trials of the two men convicted of treason, Circuit Court Judge william paterson instructed the jury that "levying war" includes armed opposition to the enforcement of a federal law. This interpretation of the Treason Clause was later applied during the trial of John Fries, and remains valid today.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Whiskey_Rebellion.aspx

Yup, the SPIN on history depends on who is telling the tale.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 10:52:03 AM

cloudboy

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Regardless of what is taught, the Russians were the ones who won the War, stalling Hitler outside Leningrad and Moscow, and then winning the battle of Stalingrad -- an event that turned the war completely around. It took a while, but the Russians beat the Axis armies head-to-head forcing them into a massive retreat. Once the Germans lost Stalingrad and their entire 5th Army, they had lost the war.

When I visited Leningrad in 1985 and made friends with a young Russian woman there, one of her first questions to me was, "Why did you wait so long to open up a second front?"

On a side note, an economics book that I'm reading states that some economists believe WWII was caused by bad monetary policy in Germany.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 1:40:22 PM

Winterapple

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FR
I was in high school before anything about
world war 2 was taught and it was more of
a general overview with the Allies together
defeating Hitler. My teacher was a Churchill
groupie and was fond of saying if only
FDR and Truman had listened to Churchill
there would have been no Cold War, no
Korea, no Vietnam .

I believe the general consesus is Hitler
made three big mistakes.
Air war with Britain. Putting a morphine
addict in charge probably wasn't a genius
move either.
Going into Russia. Opening up a second front.
Underestimating the Russians and the terrain.
Declaring war on the US thus bringing the
US fully into the war.
But it's important to remember that the German
military for the most part backed Hitler
almost to the end.

Hitler underestimated the Russians and
Americans because he saw the Russians
as subhuman and Americans as mongeral
dogs who could never be made into good
soldiers. He was thrown by America's
ability to produce and rapidly transport
supplies.

I don't think manufacturing was the only
thing America brought or could have
brought to the war effort. I believe American
troops were vital. I don't think there were
enough commonwealth soldiers to do it
on their own. Hold Germany off yes, go
in and trounce without Americans on one
front and Russians on the other, no.

I'll also be an ugly American and say the
Allies and the world were lucky to have had
Ike. He was the best man for the job.
One advantage North American soldiers
were said to have had over the European
soldiers was their mechanical ability.
Most North American soldiers had grown up
with cars, trucks, tractors so when the
tanks broke down they could fix them and
go on. When German tanks broke down they
were reliant on people who had been trained
specifically for it. It wasn't a common skill
set like it was for North Americans.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/18/2012 2:03:22 PM

Winterapple

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As far as what is taught in schools. My impression is
Germany faces it and the schools teach what
happened. The Japanese have been criticized
for not acknowledging or teaching in school their
actions. They don't teach about the rape of
Nanking or what their soldiers did in the
Philipines or their treatment of POW's or
people in internment camps. The Japanese
committed some real atrocities.

The French Resistance deserves credit
for bravery and tangible things like sabotage.
But their actual number was rather small.
There were French people who gathered
intelligence, helped Allied soldiers and hid
people to keep them from being deported
to the camps. But there were also quite a
few French collaboraters, active collaboraters.
I'm to lazy to google fu it to source it but
I read somewhere that it was the second
leading country in terms of numbers in
deporting people to the camps. The first
I believe was Poland and Germany/Austria.
I'm guessing the average Frenchman wasn't
a resistance fighter or a collaborater.
They just suffered and tried to survive
as large amounts of any population does
during times of war.

It's also worth nothing that the fighting
French resistance was made up largely
of leftists. This doesn't seem to be as true
of say the Dutch resistance.

All resistance fighters contributed to the
defeat of the Axis powers and deserve credit
for it.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 7:19:49 AM

vincentML

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quote:

On a side note, an economics book that I'm reading states that some economists believe WWII was caused by bad monetary policy in Germany.

at the end of WWI Germany was required to pay exorbitant "Reparations" to the Allies. A book I read recently about the U.S. Ambassador to Berlin in 1933 reports FDR being confronted by American bankers demanding that Germany step up and resume payments. The reparations supposedly lead to hyperinflation (buckets of deutchmarks to buy a loaf of bread) which caused rioting in the streets between Communists and Fascists and brought down the Weimar Republic. Enter Hitler.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 8/19/2012 7:23:19 AM >

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 7:22:07 AM

vincentML

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quote:

It's also worth nothing that the fighting
French resistance was made up largely
of leftists.

The same was true in Italy, I think. It was the socialists/communists who hung the bodies of Mussolini and his mistress upside down for all to see.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 8:20:56 AM

MariaB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

It's also worth nothing that the fighting
French resistance was made up largely
of leftists.

The same was true in Italy, I think. It was the socialists/communists who hung the bodies of Mussolini and his mistress upside down for all to see.

quote:

Mussolini and his mistress

We were taught at school that the Italians were the cowards of the war. Unfortunately the word 'coward' is still very much attached to the Italians amongst the older generation in the UK.
Mussolini dragged his country into a disastrous war, which the Italians were unwilling and unready to fight. When Mussolini was sacked imprisoned by the Italian king, Churchill insisted that Italy couldn't become neutral. Italian troops hence became cannon fodder for the Germans.

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 8:54:03 AM

kdsub

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HERE

Butch

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 9:07:45 AM

kdsub

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quote:

Nortraship

At the start of the war below was the situation with Nortraship...

The main challenges for the new organization were to take control of the around 1,000 vessels and to establish policies for working with Britain and the still neutral USA. There was a severe lack of qualified personnel, and those available were often vocal, determined and used to working independently. That several of the Nortraship staff had their own shipping interests to take care of further added to the problems of managing the organization.

The top management was almost exclusively Norwegian, while the lower ranks were dependent on British and US personnel.

At the same time the US fleet consisted of over 1,350 ships and US ship yards started producing almost 2 ships every day till the end of the war. At no time did Nortraship supply more tonnage than the US maritime fleet.

Butch

But today who really cares? The war is over and who won it makes no difference.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 8/19/2012 9:56:24 AM >

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RE: School history lessons and propaganda - 8/19/2012 10:08:18 AM

vincentML

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We were taught at school that the Italians were the cowards of the war. Unfortunately the word 'coward' is still very much attached to the Italians amongst the older generation in the UK.
Mussolini dragged his country into a disastrous war, which the Italians were unwilling and unready to fight. When Mussolini was sacked imprisoned by the Italian king, Churchill insisted that Italy couldn't become neutral. Italian troops hence became cannon fodder for the Germans.

I think you pretty much nailed it spot on. the Italian army of that era is regarded here in the States as well as a unit from a Benny Hill video. Ironically, Hitler greatly admired Benito early on but later became disillusioned with him. Benito, I read, was extremely jealous of Hitler's early successes and afraid Italy would not get its shares of the spoils, so he ventured an attack into Greece which was a terrible blunder. I understand Italian troops fought bravely against the British and Americans in North Africa, however. But yes, you are right about the lingering impression of their desire and ability to fight. There is a wonderful film about the occupation of Sicily by the Germans. Don't know if it is available in UK but don't see why not. The title is Malena, if you are interested.