The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (Full Version)

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sunshinemiss -> The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:13:13 PM)

Why is this a bad phrase? Really?


On the "A mature submissive" thread it came up, and people are offended. I never have been. Here's my response:

quote:

I never did understand why people don't like the term "gift of submission"... It *is* a gift I give someone... just like they gift me their dominance. It's a reciprocal thing. I *like* the idea that my submitting is seen as a choice, as something I choose to hand over. I'm damn sure no one is going to wrest it from me without a gun involved - and even then I'm gonna be looking for a way out of that mess! I'm damn sure there are people who don't dominate the fricking world and that it is a special thing shared only amongst a certain few.


I choose to give my time, energy, money to certain causes, people, beliefs. My time, energy, and money have worth. To me this is a gift. What gives, peeps?

sunshine



UllrsIshtar -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:16:50 PM)

You can't take back a gift if you decide you don't like the person you gave it to anymore (or at least you shouldn't, that'd be rude).

Submissive is therefore not something you gift to the other person. You may be giving it to the, as in on a continuous basis, just like a boss would keep paying a good employee, but you're not gifting it to the, because it isn't theirs to keep.

At the most, you're loaning it out.





RedMagic1 -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:21:31 PM)

Wasn't "gift of submission" popularized by slave jade of CastleRealm in sooper saccharin essays? I think that's the root of the gag reflex a lot of people have when they hear the phrase. Any decent person is giving a gift to others when in their presence and being good to them, but that isn't what the phrase "means" in BDSM. You might reclaim it though!

In (online?) BDSM, the phrase has a heavy tone of, "It is through my submission, which is a much deeper level of commitment than any vanilla relationship, that this D/s dynamic is magical and better than anything you could find in the vanilla world." Again, through the history of how it's been used (misused?).

My own personal take is that D/s ain't no more magical than vanilla, and, if magic happens, it's because everyone involved invested, and risked, a lot. In a sense, I'd rather talk about a "gift of trying," so it could be applied to anyone, not just subs.



displeased -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:23:10 PM)

It's not a gift for us. It's simply who I am, my personality. I can't give it to someone as a gift lol. You either like my personality and want to be with me or you don't. I can't take back my personality. I already have it. He's simply using it for our goals in our life.



sunshinemiss -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:32:15 PM)

@Ish - Interesting... I think I actually am giving a gift to my employer. I'm a great employee. If they don't respect that and appreciate it, I will take it away. Maybe the "gift" isn't all at once. Every day I make a decision to walk in the door. Every day I choose to do the work. Every day I gift them with my fabulous self. And THEY gift me with a job I enjoy, that feeds my soul (and my body via cash flow). If they take that gift away from me, I take mine away.

@Red Magic - I never heard about the CastleRealm chickie. I don't have that history with the word. I also am with you about the whole "it's not any more or less X" in bdsm versus vanilla relationships. It's all about ... well... the relationship however it looks!

@displeased... so your personality means that you submit to anyone who barks orders at you? Really? I don't believe you. Does your personality tend to be more deferential? That I can wrap my mind around, but you submit to any Tom, Dick, and Harry. Nah. Not a chance.


(I'm off to work, folks... I'll see y'all tomorrow... I hope this thread garners some good discussion - there have been a lot of them recently.)

Yeah, I'm totally taking back the "gift of submission" phrase (as per Red's note!) I LIKE IT. I want to be valued. I don't want my ... frankly... my love to be taken for granted.

best,
sunshine



Timonat -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:37:53 PM)

quote:

Yeah, I'm totally taking back the "gift of submission" phrase (as per Red's note!) I LIKE IT. I want to be valued. I don't want my ... frankly... my love to be taken for granted.


Well said. You need to be aware of your own value. If you don't value yourself, then how can anyone else?



UllrsIshtar -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:38:00 PM)

gift |gift|
noun
1 a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present: a Christmas gift | [ as modifier ] : a gift shop.
• an act of giving something as a present: his mother's gift of a pen.

You're making a trade with your employer. Just like you're making a trade with your D/s partner. But you're very much asking for payment in return, either in the form of monetary compensation, respect, intellectual stimulation, passion, and so on and so on...

As long as you're demanding payment, you're not gifting them anything, you're trading. Which is why submission is much more a loan than a gift.
It's something you loan out so long as you keep receiving payment. If you fail to receive payment, you send out the repo-guys and get it back. People don't do that with gifts.



NuevaVida -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:39:00 PM)

Wellllllllllllllll...................

I think some view "gift of submission" as a submissive who thinks she is a treasure that anyone would be so lucky to have. That's the negative view I sometimes see put on that phrase.

Another negative view has been said here - the Castlerealm romance-novel view which isn't realistic.

As for me, it's not a phrase I use, and it's not a phrase that phases me much. Like you, I think we're a gift to each other - in general. I'd think that if we were vanilla, though. It's not my submission or his dominance that's a gift; it's that his presence in my life - the man he is - is a gift from the Universe that I am oh so grateful for. And perhaps vice versa.

However, I don't self-proclaim that I'm a gift. It feels lacking in humility to me - a bit arrogant, actually. I'm either a gift to him or I'm not, depending on how he sees it. Regardless, I'm myself, and he gets to experience me. He is himself, and I get to experience him. I don't care what wrapping or bow you put on that - it's an awesome thing.



JanahX -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:42:53 PM)

I dont consider giving myself to anyone as a "gift" - and I dont consider them giving themselves to me a "gift" either.

I consider it a "choice" to be with one another because we are digging on each other. Me submitting to someone has everything to do with the way I react to that person - not because its me giving them a "gift".



LadyHibiscus -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 7:51:34 PM)

A gift is a thing given without expectation of return. Do you give your submission without expecting anything? Of course not, you expect to be met with dominance. So that gift comes with some pretty elaborate strings.

In your mind, that dominance is also a 'gift'. That makes you a rarity! I don't think of my dominance as a gift, I'm not giving it away, I'm *sharing*. We're putting in our ingredients and coming up with something else that we wouldn't have separately.

I don't like the imagery of d/s as a potlatch. Whose gift is better? Did I give enough?

Sorry, hon, not up to thinkythoughts at the moment.




Lucifyre -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 8:00:20 PM)

hmm...First of all, I am not insulted nor do I get my feathers ruffled by anyone owning that phrase for themselves and thier own dynamic. To each thier own I say...everyones preffered flavor is different and no two people can taste strawberries the exact same...anyway

I am in the TPE camp. Mr and I have a symbiotic relationship. His Dominance for me is irrelevant unless I want to submit. Aunt Hattie can give me a gift, a red sweater, or a pair of golashes. That doesn't mean I have to want or appreciate them. In order for mine and Mr's flavor of D/s to taste good, we each have to appreciate and want what we have for eachother or it doesn't work.
If anything, I appreciate what Mr does for and to me even more than I expect He would. I am the one getting the sensations, the orgasms, the "good girl's" ...sheesh, all he gets out of it is a clean houe and a blow job...and a sore arm after a few hours of beating my greedy ass.
(I'm heavily medicated, work with me here)

Again, it doesn't offend me at all when others choose to use that phrase in thier flavor of D/s. What I describe for me is just my perspective on it.

Lucifyre



kitkat105 -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 8:22:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

I dont consider giving myself to anyone as a "gift" - and I dont consider them giving themselves to me a "gift" either.

I consider it a "choice" to be with one another because we are digging on each other. Me submitting to someone has everything to do with the way I react to that person - not because its me giving them a "gift".


Yep.



sexyred1 -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 8:34:24 PM)

I agree with most of the others. I don't see it as a gift. I see it as a choice and if you find someone to share it with, you are lucky.

Gift of submission? Nah, no one is that special.



SylvereApLeanan -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 8:39:39 PM)

~FR~

IMO, a gift is something given without an expectation of receiving something in return. Subs/slaves expect to be treated as well or as poorly as required to fulfill their fantasies, to be coddled and cooed over or bound, beaten and buggered, depending on their preferences, and to have their emotional needs met. It's pretty safe to say that they expect something of value in return for submission. Submission may be part of a symbiotic relationship where both parties benefit but it is not a "gift".



LadyPact -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 9:29:52 PM)

We are all gifts to each other. Submission is no greater than any of these.

One must ask themselves why we call it "power exchange" if it's really a gift. In My Dominance, I am not absent, or not willing to reciprocate.

I'm not sitting here on high, with the gift of submission being thrown at My feet. I don't ever want to be that.



SlaveMonger -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 9:41:09 PM)

If the submission is a gift ...
can I leave it tied up under the tree?  
can I return it for something I like better?

OK - by ITSELF it's not a dreaded phrase ... the problem is that it is often used by people who don't have the first damned clue what they are talking about... yanno - the same way most guys say "I'm a Dominant"  -- Same thing! 

Most of us hear "gift of submission" from the same princesses that have the list of 273 things I should "be" before contacting them ... so to those true and honest submissives that use the term in a dedicated (if overly romantic) sense ... sorry that some of us rag on your phrase.

For me, submission isn't a gift, it's a surrender hard-won from her after she proves unable to outrun and outmanuver me.   It's a prize.   But then, that's just me.



stellauk -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 9:41:11 PM)

Frequently outside my local supermarket you get homeless people wanting loose change.

Randomly if I haven't used my debit card I will walk up to the person and hand over what change I have.

To date I have never walked up to anyone and submitted to them.

One is a choice, the other is a gift. Therein lies the difference to me.



subbingincalif -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/20/2012 11:41:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Why is this a bad phrase? Really?



Some people care about semantics. Some don't.

If you care about semantics, you can go to town on this.

If you don't give a shit about semantics, as I don't, you don't get hung up on people's phrases. You focus on the substance of what they think.



Winterapple -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/21/2012 12:05:04 AM)

FR
I'm in the it makes me cringe camp.
I do associate it with Castle Realm
dipshitedness. It also conjures up an
image of standing on a doorstep
wrapped in a big red bow with a card
tucked into your cleavage.

But I think what irks many people about
it the most, me included is it has the
aura of my twat is golden about it.
And buying into the golden twatiness
thing is messed up.

I don't see either submission or dominance
as a gift. People give of themselves to
others in different ways but I don't see
either person as a gift to the other.
A fulfilling relationship is a blessing in
many ways but they require effort.
If you think wholly on terms of gifts
and blessings you might fall into the
trap of thinking no effort is required.







Timonat -> RE: The dreaded "Gift of Submission" debacle (8/21/2012 2:55:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I agree with most of the others. I don't see it as a gift. I see it as a choice and if you find someone to share it with, you are lucky.

Gift of submission? Nah, no one is that special.


It is a pity that someone you choose to share your life with doesn't make you feel special



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