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advice on submission - 11/3/2004 9:57:16 AM

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I am a rookie to my submissive journey, I have been through a good bit of self discovery and bdsm play for the last 2 years and now, I truly want to delve into a D/s relationship. I have been told that I am very bratty, even though I am not doing this intentionally. If you have a sub, that went from vanilla relationships into a D/s relationship and faced these difficulities, will you please share some advice or allow the sub to contact me so that I can understand more of the obstacles that I face in gaining the ultimate reward of giving myself to someone.

RE: advice on submission - 11/3/2004 11:27:04 AM

Posts: 6142
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From: Washington
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Willing these might give you some insight:

subs....with brat personality

bratting, baiting, brazen....

michievous subbies

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proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/3/2004 12:14:02 PM

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Thanks proudsub, I understand what they mean, but how do I get out of the bratty phase if I am not intentionally doing it?

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: advice on submission - 11/3/2004 12:22:48 PM

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quote:

but how do I get out of the bratty phase if I am not intentionally doing it?

Hmmmmm a little punishment might help.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/3/2004 1:29:06 PM

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I can only offer advice from my own standpoint here. Where some see me as bratty it is usually those alledged Doms who try to control me. Knowing full well I have a Dom.

I run my group the way I see fit. I do this because I am told to do so by my Dom. He knows I know more than he does of the lifestyle. For me it is a never ending education cycle. I read a lot. I listen a lot and I chat a lot. I love to learn new things. Techniques and the like. I could teach so many different play techniques where a lot of subs have no clue. Many do, many don't.

I am not a brat to my Dom because he has earned my respect. It takes a lot to get to that point. We didn't start out that way.
I really don't know what makes a person a brat. I just know if you respect one another you are less likely to act like a brat.
It makes sense where I am coming from anyway. Hopefully you can get something out of it.

(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/4/2004 12:00:26 PM

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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I think what you're saying is you're doing things that are natural to you and finding out they are considered bratty by the Dom you serve? If this is it and you really want to stop doing the things he considers bratty talk to him about it. Ask him to point out when you're being bratty so you can avoid it in the future. Let him know that it is not an intentional challenge of his authority, just the fact that you are new and not aware of certain conventions. It takes time to understand what is considered brat, what is impish and guess what.. it varies from Dominant to Dominant. One of my favorite subs ever was considered by most to be an unmitigated brat. His sense of humor and mine meshed perfectly and he could always make me laugh. I loved him for that and even though we are no longer together we are still close. If I have a bad day, I call him and he perks me right up. The key here is communication. Does your bratty behaviour bother him. He may enjoy some of it. You can ask to be told when you're going too far. You could have a code word for back off, you're too close to true disrespect. In a perfect world, a Dominant knows what they want and asks for it. In a fantasy world, we read each others minds and just take care of each other as needed. In reality, open your mouth and talk.

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(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/4/2004 11:34:47 PM

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Just a quick hijack to say that's usually the most useful kind of advice there is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire

I can only offer advice from my own standpoint here.

(in reply to sub4hire)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 5:58:18 AM

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A lot of brats I have encountered seem to be brats until they realize that there are consequences for their actions. Some brats may be acting that way simply to get the attention of their dominant. If the dominant is reacting to the behavior by providing the brat with what she wants...well then...who's in control?

Some brats just enjoy the playfulness of the dynamic. Brats can be a lot of fun, but for me, there is a definate difference between a brat who recognizes and respects the relationship and a brat who is "misbehaving" simply to get what she wants by undermining the power exchange.

Brattiness is something that I can tolerate from time to time as long as it doesn't compromise the structure of the relationship.

My advice to you, willing2serve, is to be self-aware. What brings out the brat in you? Is it a playfulness that is accepted by your partner as play? Or is it a form of manipulation to get what you want or feel that you need?

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

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(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 6:32:02 AM

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We call them S.A.M's .. smart ass masochist. There is a fine line to walk btwn witty and sarcastic.. btwn high spirited and willful. I am not of the mindset that its ok to be disrespectful to anyone.. top, bottom, whatever simply because you can be.. because you WILL be.. because they arent relavent to your submission. You choose your actions, how you react and interact are choices made habit by a lifetime of experience.

I dont believe I need to *earn* anyones respect.. I am who I am.. sam I am.. like me dont like me ... so be it.. I behave as is appropriate to my how code of conduct.But treat me poorly and I am more than capable of voicing my concerns to both submissive or Dominant. ( this is slightly off track)

Brats can be amusing for a time.. but in the constant never ending conflict becomes tiresome.. boring .. and eventually needless .. good humor, good conversation, good behavior, and willing graceful submission is far more appealing overtime.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 10:06:40 AM

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I am a slave looking for a Master, I dont know why I am having so much trouble, I am obedient and not bad to look at. I am married to a vanilla and have this secret life. He can never know. I had a Master for 8 months and then he released me. I have learned a lot sence then, How can I find the right Master for me

(in reply to BeachMystress)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 10:44:42 AM

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From: CA
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quote:

We call them S.A.M's .. smart ass masochist.

Not all "sam's" are "brats" and vice versa. I have my moments of being a "brat". But, I am not a masochist so how could you classify me as a "sam"?

I have always understood that a "sam" was someone who sought out attention through physical punishment.

Although most of the ideas are great, I would have to agree with BeachMytress' advice. Communication is always the best way to go.

Take care,

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Sylverdawn)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 11:06:53 AM

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From: Santiago, Chile
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(Snip) I have been told that I am very bratty, even though I am not doing this intentionally. (Snip)

Without reading too deeply into this, two things come to mind. First, that perhaps this is just your natural personality. I think too often the 'ideal' submissive/slave is seen as one who is instantly obedient under every and all circumstances, almost like a perfect 5 year old who never runs in the mud, never steals cookies, and never complains that it's her bedtime. If your natural personality is to complain when your feet are tired, get grouchy when you have to make coffee at 5 am, or throw a fit when told you have to go to the doctor, that doesn't make you a 'bad submissive' - it makes you just plain normal.

A scene from Office Space comes to mind. He's at the hypnotherapists office, and asking "can't you make me come home from work, and think that I've been fishing all day?" D/s probably won't replace your current life and make you leap for joy from your bed to make coffee at 5 am (unless you're already doing that) but it can definately give a sense of reward or satisfaction from these simple routines. Your milage may vary, of course.

The second thing is that perhaps you are simply experiencing growing pains, so to speak. Any sort of real change to a persons life comes with hiccups, problems, and frustrations. This is just part of life, and over time the appearence of being 'bratty' may subside.

Best of luck to you

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to feline)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 12:11:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: feline

quote:

We call them S.A.M's .. smart ass masochist.

Not all "sam's" are "brats" and vice versa. I have my moments of being a "brat". But, I am not a masochist so how could you classify me as a "sam"?

I have always understood that a "sam" was someone who sought out attention through physical punishment.

Although most of the ideas are great, I would have to agree with BeachMytress' advice. Communication is always the best way to go.

Take care,

I used We as in me and those people I interact with.. I would never attempt to classify you as anything.

For Me its a person who seeks attention through misdirected behavior.. brattiness is one of them.. that attention can be in the form of negative or positive ..like the child who pulls their pants down in public learns that it makes Mama laugh.. so then it becomes a problem.. as lil joey is running naked arsed through every mall in the state..
Rewards and punishments are tricky things... sometimes just getting the attention you crave is enough... sometimes its a physical punishment..sometimes is a warning look .. sometimes its a slap on the arse saying silly girl its enough.. but either way the bratti or negative behavior is being acknowledged and dealt with. Sometimes pain comes in more subtle forms than belt to ass... just my point of view.

quote:

think too often the 'ideal' submissive/slave is seen as one who is instantly obedient under every and all circumstances, almost like a perfect 5 year old who never runs in the mud, never steals cookies, and never complains that it's her bedtime.

I think the ideal submissive is like perfect cup of tea.. depends on how you take it..

I do disagree with your natural tendenices idea.. it might be my natural tendency to complain about working too hard.. but if I complain to loudly or too frequently in the earshot of my boss .. Im going to be out of work. So we learn to curb our behaviour to get more positive results.. ie a regular paycheck.. if you choose to serve.. then your choices in behavior need to reflect that choice appropriately... again just my point of view.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to feline)

RE: advice on submission - 11/5/2004 8:55:11 PM

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
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quote:

I am a slave looking for a Master, I dont know why I am having so much trouble, I am obedient and not bad to look at. I am married to a vanilla and have this secret life. He can never know. I had a Master for 8 months and then he released me. I have learned a lot sence then, How can I find the right Master for me

First of all i suggest you update your profile to say you are looking. Have you ever approached your hubby about your interests? When mine found out about an affair i had with a local dom we had a long talk and He is now my Master. Before that i was afraid to talk to Him about it, thought He would never understand. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss it further, i have already bored the people on the forums here enough with my story.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to sjjade)

RE: advice on submission - 11/6/2004 11:51:50 AM

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Thanks again E/everyone for your advice....when I use the term "bratty" it's not in a negative way..I dont complain and usually most of the time have a smile on my face. I have a Mary Poppins attititude that likes to get popped (smile)...I like to use humor and wit to dance around serious issues, a defense mechanism of sorts....I see now where there is a time to play and a time to be serious, especially if he is doing his intricate rope work, not a time to want to cuddle and play...So needless to say, I am growing and working on my brattiness..maybe not as fast as my Dom would like. Thinking back in my life, Everyone has a way of getting what they want...I didnt get things that I wanted by temper tantrums or pouting, I did it with being "cute" and its worked until now...(smile) Anymore advice will greatly be appreciated.

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: advice on submission - 11/8/2004 6:42:55 PM

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From: Sacramento, California
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Well I'm just generally mouthy. And I'm a smartass to boot. Some people view that as being a brat - but others see the sense of humor that generally propells it.

I found someone that not only saw the humor, but would meet it. It's now something of an enjoyable little banter between us, if he's not quick enough, yup, I'll outsass him, but he's usually able to keep up and sass me back.

He had a hard time with it at first because he kept seeing it as being disrespectful - but after he saw how my circle of vanilla friends worked - we are SERIOUS burn addicts - if you leave a verbal door open or open yourself up to a burn we will zing ya and zing ya good - but it is all done with a sense of humor, it's not really an insult. He'd never been around that kind of mentality - so it took him a while to understand that when Californians of my generation and younger call someone an asshole - one MUST rely on context and tone to determine if it's meant as an insult or just as a joking zinger. My nickname in highschool was quite literally "Bitch". I answered to it, I had no issue with it, mostly cuz, well I *am* a bitch, lol, and it sorta fit me. To this day if someone hollers Bitch I have to fight the urge to turn and say "Yes?" lol. However Ray wasn't used to that (evidently this was a West Coast thing mostly - who knew?) and at first kept interpreting the casual way we had with a blithe insult, or trapping someone in a loophole (I AM the LoopHole QUEEN lol) as either being a challenge, an insult, or disrespectful. Now he just fires them back, without really thinking about it (I done corrupted him bwahahaha), and he KNOWS if there is a loophole I'll find the sucker - and he's gotten VERY good at spotting the suckers before he speaks (damnit kills a bunch of fun lol)

Really not many dominants would be able to handle that or WANT to - I think I'm one of those ironically enough lol - and especially male dominants, so I tend to think of it as being a compatiblity factor. I tend to always be in a fun loving mood, so a mainly serious dominant would NOT work - I know when to be serious, but the majority of the time I'm just having fun and it's nice to have someone that joins in and just revels in life and in the moment rather than making everything into a power dynamic every friggin second.

I still remember when he asked me to bring him a mouse his expression when I delivered a LIVE mouse LOL. Hey he didnt SAY he wanted the *computer* mouse. Naturally when pulling such a prank I had the real deal behind my back but still it was funny. Some dominants have NO inner love for a prankish partner or pranks in general - turns out that is an actual compatiblity point for me. It's so NICE to be able to relax and just goof around with your partner - I wouldn't give it up.

That being said - there IS a time and a place for everything.

~ShadeDiva

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(in reply to willing2serve)

RE: advice on submission - 11/9/2004 6:27:53 AM

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From: Santiago, Chile
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

I think the ideal submissive is like perfect cup of tea.. depends on how you take it..

I do disagree with your natural tendenices idea.. it might be my natural tendency to complain about working too hard.. but if I complain to loudly or too frequently in the earshot of my boss .. Im going to be out of work. So we learn to curb our behaviour to get more positive results.. ie a regular paycheck.. if you choose to serve.. then your choices in behavior need to reflect that choice appropriately... again just my point of view.

Quite right - a submissive is how you take it. Like some people with coffee, I kinda like a submissive as she is - I add a little sugar to enhance the flavor and a little cream to mellow the texture. Some people take submissives for wives, others for husbands, and some still for furniture and ashtrays. Fortunately, there are just as many submissives to fill those roles, depending on their interests. Hence, my statement "I think too often the ideal is...." because there seems to be (in my perception) an almost collective agreement that to be a good submissive, you must have xyz qualities, and this perception leads to submissives questioning themselves "well, I don't fit xyz, am I a bad submissive? Should I be something else?"

As to the natural tendencies, I agree, you naturally change your behavior depending on the situation. Having said that, in my own supervisory situations, I've had employees who do complain too loudly and too often. (I told em if they don't like it, quit.) We all know that so many different types of people get involved in the lifestyle for many different reasons - not all reasons are good. There's the classic SAM (discussed earlier) who intentionally misbehaves in search of another lick - and there are sadists who enjoy the opportunity to give it a swing. Obviously, to an outsider, it would seem like a bad sub, and this probably reflects badly on the Dominant, as the Dom should be training her better.... blah blah blah.

Fortunately for the SAM and his/her Dom/me, the outsider's perspective doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the response though!

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to Sylverdawn)

RE: advice on submission - 11/9/2004 7:34:23 AM

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From: Florida
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You never bore us proud!! I agree with you that jade needs to talk to her husband. It is SO bad to keep a secret like that.

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~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

(in reply to proudsub)

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