RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (Full Version)

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JstAnotherSub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:20:12 PM)

quote:

If it were cancer, no one would say boo to a goose.


I would object to spending 50k of tax dollars for cancer treatment of a murderer also.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:21:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Thank you for sucking up, JJ!




It's what I do.

(I felt it was a fairly solid suck up frankly, all things considered).



kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:28:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

If it were cancer, no one would say boo to a goose.


I would object to spending 50k of tax dollars for cancer treatment of a murderer also.


Supreme Court Takes the "Radical" Stance That Prisoners Are Human Beings

Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, in his dissenting opinion to last week’s Brown v. Plata decision, called the ruling “perhaps the most radical injunction issued by a court in our nation’s history.” Since Scalia is the ultimate legal literalist, we presumably ought to take his written opinions literally. So what is this decision that the Court’s most conservative justice finds more “radical” even than Roe v. Wade or Brown v. Board of Education? It is no less than the notion that prisoners are human beings, entitled to the most basic human rights even while incarcerated.

In rendering the majority opinion in the Plata case, Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote: “Prisoners retain the essence of human dignity inherent in all persons. Respect for that dignity animates the Eighth Amendment prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.” And cruel and unusual punishment is what California prisoners are receiving, according to the Supreme Court’s 5-4 ruling, in a prison system so overcrowded that it cannot provide anything close to adequate mental health care or medical care to its 147,000 inmates. To comply with the Court’s ruling California must remedy the situation by reducing its prison population to a mere 137.5 percent of capacity, rather than the current 175.5 percent.

It’s a decision that runs counter to the federal courts’ take on prisoners’ rights over at least three decades, especially since the passage of the 1996 Prison Litigation Reform Act, which severely limited the ability of prisoners to file civil lawsuits and of courts to intervene on their behalf. In citing the “essence of human dignity” inherent even in the nation’s 2.3 million prison inmates, the decision also runs counter to the mentality of mass incarceration, by which prisoners have been so effectively dehumanized that otherwise decent people condone treating them in ways that often approach–and sometimes constitute–torture. Kennedy actually references torture in insisting that a “prison that deprives prisoners of basic sustenance, including adequate medical care, is incompatible with the concept of human dignity and has no place in civilized society.”

Read more: http://solitarywatch.com/2011/05/31/supreme-court-strikes-a-blow-for-the-human-rights-of-prisoners/




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:35:51 PM)

Relative of woman killed by Michelle Kosilek blasts judge for making state pay for sex-change operation
E-mail | Print | Comments (1) 09/06/2012 5:25 PM


By John R. Ellement, Globe Staff

The niece of the woman Michelle Kosilek murdered when she was known as Robert Kosilek said today that she does not want Kosilek to get sex change surgery at taxpayers’ expense and that she wants the state to appeal a federal judge’s decision ordering the surgery.

“As far as I’m concerned, he deserves nothing,’’ Laura J. Brandel said in a telephone interview. “If he wants to attempt suicide and take his own life, let him. It might sound cold to you, but it’s cold what he did to her.’’

Brandel said her family is also working with US Senator Scott Brown to somehow prevent Kosilek from getting the surgery that US District Judge Mark Wolf ruled this week is a medical necessity.

http://www.boston.com/metrodesk/2012/09/06/relative-woman-killed-michelle-kosilek-blasts-judge-for-making-state-pay-for-sex-change-operation/kZBTg1eOgNRW1nZh1WpVLL/story.html

Fuck his human rights. He gave them up when he took his wifes human rights, and life, away.



kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:36:47 PM)

Look how much easier the women have it!

the photos that helped convince Supreme Court justices to downsize California's overcrowded lockups.

[image]http://www.motherjones.com/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/photoessays/ca-prison-women1.jpg[/image]

[image]http://www.motherjones.com/files/imagecache/node-gallery-display/photoessays/ca-prison-bunks3.jpg[/image]



angelikaJ -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:43:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I wonder what the general reaction would be if we had a murderer who was being denied medical treatment because they were male, or because they were female, or because they were black, or Hispanic, or Jewish, or disabled, or homosexual.

Not medical treatment, experimental medical treatment. You really can't gloss over the word experimental because it effects where people stand on this issue.

Being denied an experimental medical treatment that the government won't give out to non criminals because it's experimental isn't the same as being denied a non experimental medical treatment because of gender/race/orientation/etc.




How can a medical procedure that was first performed in 1930 (albeit primitively compared to today), be consider "experimental"?
That is 83 years ago, if my arithmetic is correct.

btw: this is not the first time that the issue of SRS as a basic human right has been addressed:
On June 12 2003, European Court of Human Rights judged human rights violation for Van Kück, a German transsexual woman to be refused the pay for gender reassignment surgery as well as hormone replacement therapy relating the Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights as well as the Article 8. This affair is called "Van K�ck vs Germany".

On the surface, I can see how this could be viewed as "special treatment".
However, if this was coronary bypass surgery (first performed in 1960), it would have been done and we never would have heard about it. (And I know there are people who would likewise object to that... but it is what it is.)
It is not easy to fool the experts who do the evaluations for SRS. I don't think that giving her a treatment that has been deemed as "medically necessary" is going to make her life easier while serving life in prison.
Just something to think about.

For those whose lives have been irrevocably changed by serious violence committed against them or the murder of a loved one, I am very sorry that that is a part of your lives.



LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 4:58:16 PM)

I'm not especially sure that we aren't comparing apples to oranges when we're talking about this type of treatment being parallel to cancer. Point blank, cancer will kill you if not treated. The argument being applied here is that the person in question has attempted suicide at some point. A disease that kills you with no other physical influence is not the same as trying to take your own life.

GID, as far as I know, is not guaranteed to be fatal if SRS is not the course of action. GID would not be on the death certificate as the cause of death the way cancer would. We even classify them differently between a disease and a disorder. The cancer comparisons are more to tug on the emotions.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:00:19 PM)

Agreeing with LadyPact. Because of the examples I already discussed.



OttersSwim -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:00:42 PM)

Knee or hip replacement surgery then...same thing.

Also, it is stated that she is living as a female in the prison and has done so for multiple years.



LadyPact -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:02:40 PM)

Aren't knee and hip replacements generally done to relieve physical pain?


ETA - That would be closer though. Also an instance where John Q Public CAN get the treatment approved from government programs, making it a standard of care.



mstrj69 -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:17:38 PM)

So, the judge feels the surgery is needed versus the hormone treatment. Does that mean the state no longer needs to provide the hormones? Maybe let him go without until the surgery and after the surgery. If a true female she doesn't need hormones.
Where is the judge's waiver of liability for the state concerning liability ? If anything happens to her after the surgery and others decide to sue on his behalf saying the surgery was not necessary and contributed to the reason she was hurt, who will be sued? Doubt if it will be the judge.

Wonder if this could be extrapolated and anybody convicted of rape could be determined mentally ill and therefore needs this surgery?



epiphiny43 -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:23:19 PM)

Curious about a professional's view after seeing this thread, I asked. The reality is, according to my friend, a well known NYC physician now in semi-retirement, (Still current license in several states) is that sexual reassignment surgery solves NO issues. (He isn't a reassignment surgeon, with a vested interest in the procedure and it's public reputation. But marvelously educated.) The victims generally have exactly the same depressed, suicidal and delusional personalities after as their situation that 'required' the surgery and hormone transformation. But someone is now out a large sum of money. Those who don't NEED it are the likely good outcomes. The worse the emotional and psychological state of the candidate, the more dismal the forecast of the outcome. The extreme problems are not between the legs, they're between the ears. Knives don't fix obsessions.
In my circle, the ex-gf's half brother went through most of his grandmother's life savings in 'counseling', got the surgery and is the same self-absorbed, suicidal dick he was with one. Only now out the best way to get attention going? The idea gets sold with no reality check on the actual outcomes. Cancer surgery with this percentage of success would be an absolute last ditch Hail Mary. We read testimony by the successes, NO publicity on the many more continuing train wrecks of lives that are still in the shitter minus the outie parts.

Knee and hip replacements are done to restore function. Caring for the long term incarcerated with mobility issues is likely more expensive. Again, there isn't any legal sexual activity for most felons besides Rosy Palm or her friends, Roman Fingers? Isn't that one POINT of incarceration, loss of freedoms? Does it matter which you can't do, penetrate or be penetrated?



thishereboi -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:30:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Personally I am not saying her diagnosis is incorrect. I haven't read any links, and I really don't care. I don't think she's entitled to SRS**, but she's getting it, so we're done with that part.

I have to say, as a person that's known more transfolk than the "average" reader of the boards here... who the hell said that someone so unbalanced that they will mutilate themselves is in good mental condition for this sort of surgery and transition? I don't know ANYONE who has had the surgery that didn't have a lengthy transition of living full time as a well adjusted female (OR MALE) before surgery was done. IT'S NOT MAGIC, it's not a guarantee of everything being okay. I know transfolk who have never had bottom surgery that are happy campers doing their thing. Some are waiting to save money, some are content as they are. How often do we say that genitalia does not equal gender? Why does it mean that Michelle will be "more" Michelle when she already IS?

Right now, she's in a men's facility, living as a woman? How's that working? How is the transition going to work in a women's facility? If we go with the stereotype that the average US prison population is poor, undereducated, POC, generally not up with the current evolved mindset, how is a person who strangled her wife going to be received? How much extra counselling, how much extra protection from the general prison population, is she going to get?

I don't see this case as helping the cause of trans acceptance at all.




**this is, for me, an indictment of our medical system that allows people to die of cancer and heart disease without treatment... it appalls me that prisoners get better health care than many Americans, especially seniors.


QFT



Winterapple -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 5:37:03 PM)

FR
We're either a society of law or we aren't.
If we say we are then we are obliged to
apply the law consistently.

Miranda laws, the right to a lawyer
and the assumption of innocence are
all part of our societies legal code.
They rights have helped the guilty
in some cases but as a society we
generally except this as a safety
measure against the innocent being
punished and also as ethical behavior.

If this person had been lynched from
the get go it would have been much
cheaper all the way round. If we throw
out our current laws for mob rule we
will save a great deal of money. Just
the money we'll save not having to
bother with a police force will be quite
substantial.

It's inevitable this person will become
poster child for things likes trans issues
and the put upon tax payer. That's not
really what it's about but the wisdom of
the mob is unerring.

Violence is not an abstract concept
for me. I know the rage, the
helplessness and the sorrow it
produces in it's victims.
I know what it's like to wish someone
dead and to wish someone suffering.
But I will not let anyone take my
humanity from me. I will not become
a primitive by behaving primitively
to a primitive. I will cling to humanity
and and I will advocate that humans
never throw away their dignity even in
the face of the worst of human
wretchedness.

There are reasons that civilized
societies make the decision to not
torture enemy soldiers. There are
reasons societies reject cruel and
unusual punishment. Integrity is
a gift a society gives to itself and
humankind.

The idea that convicts get medical
treatment galls some people. Why
should they receive care when so
many people who have committed
no crime can't get access to medical
treatment. The answer to this is not
denial of care to people in prison it's
in not denying care to any citizen.
How do you help the people out of
prison by denying prisoners? You don't.
All you do is begin slouching towards
barbarianism. There are responsiabilities
inherent when one takes guardianship
of another which is essentially what the
state does when it imprisons someone.
Ethical treatment doesn't coddle prisoners
it protects the guardians and society
from collapsing into chaos.




epiphiny43 -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:09:13 PM)

Winterapple: you are railing against a schizophrenic system. We profess enlightened humanity yet construct an entire legal and penal system around retribution. Nobody ever gets sentenced to, "Until you are better. " The judge would be lynched? A 'Christian Nation', yet an Old Testament legal system. No part of the normal large prison has rehabilitation as it's goal. And has the recidivism rates to prove it.
Read the analysis of the Norwegian legal system for a diametrically opposed concept. (In a recent thread by our esteemed Scandinavian poster) The return to society of a useful contributing citizen is their whole point, the concept of a life sentence hasn't been current in the system for a long time, the latest political outrage is testing that resolve.
You fix the insanity of the US legal system from the front end, the laws and regulations it operates under, not the back end, court orders modifying practices piecemeal.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:19:27 PM)

Your medical friend agrees with my point, Ephiphiny, a suicidal individual is not a good candidate for surgery.

Thanks, THB, I think we know a lot of the same people.



kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:22:59 PM)

While looking to see what the "vested interests" have to say about surgical outcomes, I was fascinated to find that the Iranian government pays for SRS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery#History

Filmmaker Tanaz Eshaghian discovered that the Iranian government's "solution" for homosexuality is to endorse, and fully pay for, sex reassignment surgery.[15] The leader of Iran's Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, issued a fatwa declaring sex reassignment surgery permissible for "diagnosed transsexuals."[15] Eshaghian's documentary, Be Like Others, chronicles a number of stories of Iranian gay men who feel transitioning is the only way to avoid further persecution, jail and/or execution.[15] The head of Iran's main transsexual organization, Maryam Khatoon Molkara—who convinced Khomeini to issue the fatwa on transsexuality—confirmed that some people who undergo operations are gay rather than transsexual.[16]



GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:26:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
We are still objecting to the treatment - thereby invalidating the right of self determination of this person, and by association all trans people everywhere.

Yea, we are.


We're invalidating the right of self determination among murderers. Our society is quite comfortable with that, if it wasn't frankly we wouldn't have these things called prisons.


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
If it were cancer, no one would say boo to a goose.

BOO (can someone find me a goose?)

Find any treatment that the average American can't get and you will find a shit storm when it's given to a criminal

Controversial heart transplant / Inmate's operation at $1 million cost to taxpayers angers many




GotSteel -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:28:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
There are far more deserving cases out there in the US among the transgendered who haven't committed crimes. This isn't one of them.



[sm=goodpost.gif]



kalikshama -> RE: Federal judge rules state must provide sex reassignment surgery for convicted murderer (9/6/2012 6:44:18 PM)

quote:

Read the analysis of the Norwegian legal system for a diametrically opposed concept. (In a recent thread by our esteemed Scandinavian poster) The return to society of a useful contributing citizen is their whole point, the concept of a life sentence hasn't been current in the system for a long time, the latest political outrage is testing that resolve.


Here's the thread; nephandi and Aswad come in on page 3 and make too many points to quote here: What gentle people you Norwegians must be.

I liked this summary:

Norway, with a liberal humane and compassionate criminal justice system designed to rehabilitate offenders has virtually eliminated crime as a real phenomenon, while the USA, with its punitive system designed for punishment and retribution has an enormous crime problem.

The USA has over 2,000,000 of its citizens behind bars, with a total of over 6 million subject to "correctional supervision" of one kind or another. Yet the threads here are full of US citizens complaining about the high crime rate, the 'need' for self defence weapons the alleged 'softness' of the prison system and criminal punishment (jail terms). The cost of maintaining this system is staggering. It is beyond comprehension that these costs are paid annually for such poor results.

Can the choice be starker?



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