Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (Full Version)

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Yachtie -> Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 7:58:46 AM)

It's about math, not politics.

There is no "half measure" that will work. This is not about politics, it is about arithmetic. It is about a greater than 9% increase in federal spending on a compounded basis from 1980 to last year. It is about two decades of 10%+ increases in health premiums forced down the throats of businesses that have resulted in the skimming of nearly 20% of GDP by these firms into the pockets of some very wealthy individuals and corporate interests.


1. Stop it. Now. Repeal all the special protections granted health-related companies, "for-profit" or not, and allow competition to work. Stop protecting cross-border pricing disparities with felony laws prohibiting re-importation and enforce the first-sale doctrine. Repeal EMTALA. Prosecute balance sheet games and claims repricing as a felony attempt to restrain trade. Demand and enforce level pricing irrespective of the means of payment under threat of felony prosecution under the Sherman, Clayton and Robinson-Patman acts. Make forced subsidies from those who can pay to those who cannot a criminal offense prosecuted as is any other form of grand theft. Prosecute those who attempt to prevent others from opening hospitals, practices or diagnostic centers through CON laws and similar games as Racketeering, because it is. Ban the "in-network/out-of-network" tying between alleged insurance companies and providers as a rank violation of the Sherman Act and bring felony Racketeering prosecutions against those who attempt it in the future. Ban the sale of alleged "insurance" that is not actually insurance, forcing the separation between insurance (a product bought against a highly-unlikely but catastrophic event) and "prepaid medical services", putting an end to cross-subsidizations in this area as well.

2. Collapse the existing system and go to single-payer with hard rationing. This is where we're headed, because the system will collapse if we don't act on it. Our choice here is simply to evade the economic damage that comes from a government funding crisis in the middle of where we are now and this endpoint. This will mean that if you need a coronary bypass your name will go on a list and when you get to the top of the list you get your procedure. If you die first that's just tough crap. This is the Canadian model, basically. And if we get it here, it's going to suck.

This isn't about politics so much as it is about mathematics and the single largest existential threat to the continued fiscal solvency of our local, state and federal governments.



Both sides of the aisle are at fault. It should be noted that Obamacare is a step towards Door #2. It should also be noted that Romney, should he actually dump Obamacare (which he will not actually do) does not head towards Door #1.


This is instructive as relates to compounding.

People can either pay attention or live in La La Land. I await the usual and various forms of [sm=lalala.gif] that's so prevalent here in this forum. As such, I shall begin [sm=popcorn.gif]

The above only applies to healthcare. It ignores other related systemic problems.






mnottertail -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 8:06:46 AM)

A false dilemma with two unopenable doors.

Anyone got a coathanger for $200?   How about a wedding dress?

Monte Hall, lets make a deal. 




Owner59 -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 9:09:24 AM)



Sure.......




So how is a "voucher system" the solution.....?

And what happens if/when someone blows their`s because they know jack shit about navigating the maze of medical choices and pit-falls?

This is one of the main reasons the president is 8 points ahead.




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 11:42:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A false dilemma with two unopenable doors.

Anyone got a coathanger for $200?   How about a wedding dress?

Monte Hall, lets make a deal. 



Ask if he misses Neil Sedaka enough to tie him to health care too.




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 11:43:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



Sure.......




So how is a "voucher system" the solution.....?

And what happens if/when someone blows their`s because they know jack shit about navigating the maze of medical choices and pit-falls?

This is one of the main reasons the president is 8 points ahead.


Easy ... Vouchers run out. And we all know  "Dead men tell no tales".




mnottertail -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 11:56:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A false dilemma with two unopenable doors.

Anyone got a coathanger for $200?   How about a wedding dress?

Monte Hall, lets make a deal. 



Ask if he misses Neil Sedaka enough to tie him to health care too.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

I can hook up with neal and see what he can sing but I'd rather have Charlie Gracie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDmPoHq-xro




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 12:12:17 PM)

He's right in one regard Romney Care open Massachusetts to quality health care vendors such as MegaHealth[sm=anger.gif]




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 12:20:02 PM)

Which resembled door #3


[image]local://upfiles/1488921/342DA5B0035E43EA99895CB4530C4817.jpg[/image]




mnottertail -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 12:26:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

He's right in one regard Romney Care open Massachusetts to quality health care vendors such as MegaHealth[sm=anger.gif]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyMi2F-NAQU




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 12:48:45 PM)

Not quite... The band probably provides a greater range of services than MegaHealth. Under RomneyCare, MegaHealth charged families of 4 about $500 a month for a policy with no office visits and a $10k deductible for major surgery.
   And in his weekend interview he used the same language he did as Governor to describe what he will now "REPLACE" the ACA with NOW THAT HE IS NO LONGER REPEALING IT.
Caveat Em tor




FMRFGOPGAL -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 12:54:43 PM)

Fortunately, the governor who took the office after Romney, because he wanted to be Governor and not use the people of Massachusetts as stepping stone to the white house, has done a great deal to remedy the hapless plan Romney put in place. He kicked out many crooks . Those who wished to stay had to offer better services than they had been offering.




RahvinDom -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 3:20:19 PM)

quote:

This will mean that if you need a coronary bypass your name will go on a list and when you get to the top of the list you get your procedure. If you die first that's just tough crap. This is the Canadian model, basically. And if we get it here, it's going to suck.


You do realize that this is already the way it works, right? Except that under the current system people who cannot afford care wind up needing the bypass when it could have been prevented entirely with regular doctor visits to catch the problem sooner.

Limited availability of health resources is already an issue - just because we arent single payer doesnt mean we magically have unlimited cardiologists who can perform a bypass on a moments notice. You already go on a list pending availability of a surgeon.

The myth that single payer care causes some new problem of rationing is a lie. The only real difference is that "ability to pay" is removed from the equasion.

That sounds pretty good to me.




Lucylastic -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 3:38:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RahvinDom

quote:

This will mean that if you need a coronary bypass your name will go on a list and when you get to the top of the list you get your procedure. If you die first that's just tough crap. This is the Canadian model, basically. And if we get it here, it's going to suck.


You do realize that this is already the way it works, right? Except that under the current system people who cannot afford care wind up needing the bypass when it could have been prevented entirely with regular doctor visits to catch the problem sooner.

Limited availability of health resources is already an issue - just because we arent single payer doesnt mean we magically have unlimited cardiologists who can perform a bypass on a moments notice. You already go on a list pending availability of a surgeon.

The myth that single payer care causes some new problem of rationing is a lie. The only real difference is that "ability to pay" is removed from the equasion.

That sounds pretty good to me.

THis, And while I will not speak for the rest of the country....
Toronto wait times for non emergency is Bypass surgery is 86 days. And you dont have to have private insurance, or even company insurance, its open to ALLL Ontarians




tazzygirl -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 3:56:18 PM)

http://heartsurgery.cqc.org.uk/survival.aspx

Survival rates for heart surgery in the UK as opposed to the US.

Its interesting... the rates are listed at the bottom of each section.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 5:15:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RahvinDom
quote:

This will mean that if you need a coronary bypass your name will go on a list and when you get to the top of the list you get your procedure. If you die first that's just tough crap. This is the Canadian model, basically. And if we get it here, it's going to suck.

You do realize that this is already the way it works, right? Except that under the current system people who cannot afford care wind up needing the bypass when it could have been prevented entirely with regular doctor visits to catch the problem sooner.
Limited availability of health resources is already an issue - just because we arent single payer doesnt mean we magically have unlimited cardiologists who can perform a bypass on a moments notice. You already go on a list pending availability of a surgeon.
The myth that single payer care causes some new problem of rationing is a lie. The only real difference is that "ability to pay" is removed from the equasion.
That sounds pretty good to me.


Until that time when Government decides to lower it's costs by lowering the reimbursement rates. Then, you'll see more and more of an exodus of doctors. With demand staying, essentially the same, and supply dwindling, you'll see government get that "oh fuck" face on, pass a Doc Fix bill and then start limiting the number of services paid for.

It'll be soooo great!




DesideriScuri -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 5:19:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
http://heartsurgery.cqc.org.uk/survival.aspx
Survival rates for heart surgery in the UK as opposed to the US.
Its interesting... the rates are listed at the bottom of each section.


The question isn't who survives the surgery, but how many don't make it to surgery? The stats were only showing survival of the surgeries. If one has to wait (and I don't know if any do or don't), how many don't make it?

Lucylastic posted that it's 86 days wait for a non-emergency bypass surgery. Makes me wonder how many people die before getting to the surgery?




Lucylastic -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 5:38:47 PM)

Far fewer than those dying from not having insurance.




mnottertail -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 5:51:59 PM)

Well, no thats not a question, really DS.

The question becomes what is the typical wait for the same heart surgery across the US?

and this right here?  fucking laughable tripe:

Until that time when Government decides to lower it's costs by lowering the reimbursement rates. Then, you'll see more and more of an exodus of doctors. With demand staying, essentially the same, and supply dwindling, you'll see government get that "oh fuck" face on, pass a Doc Fix bill and then start limiting the number of services paid for.

It'll be soooo great!






Where the fuck they gonna exodus to?   Canaan for fucks sake?  The rest of the civilized world has universal healthcare, and trinidad and tobago pays in mangoes.

Not gonna put alot of shingles on the house with that. 




tazzygirl -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 5:55:33 PM)

Waitlist time was analyzed for association with the risk of in-hospital death, accounting for the role of other known risk factors. Risk was compared for patients with:
Short delays—within two weeks for "semiurgent" and 6 weeks for "nonurgent" procedures—as recommended by the Canadian Cardiac Society (CCS).
Prolonged delays—within 6 to 12 weeks—as recommended by British Columbia provincial guidelines.
Excessive delays—longer than either set of recommendations.

Overall, about 12.5 percent of patients had short delays to CABG surgery, 21.5 percent had prolonged delays, and 66 percent had excessive delays. Patients with shorter delays tended to be sicker and to have more risk factors.

The absolute risk of in-hospital death was relatively small: 1.2 percent. However, risk increased from 0.6 percent for patients with short delays, to 1.1 percent for those with prolonged delays, to 1.3 percent for those with excessive delays.

Once other risk factors were taken into account, the odds of death were about two-thirds lower for the patients with short versus excessive delays. There was no significant difference in risk for patients in the prolonged delay category.


http://www.wolterskluwer.com/Press/Latest-News/2012/Pages/pr6Aug2012a.aspx





defiantbadgirl -> RE: Healthcare. Doors #1 and #2. (9/11/2012 6:01:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Until that time when Government decides to lower it's costs by lowering the reimbursement rates. Then, you'll see more and more of an exodus of doctors.


And where will these doctors go? Other developed countries already have single-payer health care.




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