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RE: Israel - 10/14/2012 3:50:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Desideriscuri makes an interesting opinion statement in "so who's a terrorist now" thread -

I still maintain that Israel needs to be protected when attacked.

Begs a question. If Israel is that Israel of Biblical prophecy, of what need has Israel of earthly big brother security? Of course there is the argument of what instrument(s) God might use.

One could point out that as a people the Jews have existed and even thrived in many places throughout the world prior to Israel's creation. The Christian could point to prophecy and God's promise to Israel. But that begs just how God keeps his promise.

What I find so interesting is Israel's existence at all. It's place as a focal point, even as to Jerusalem.

Desideriscuri always makes interesting points.

And yours (above) are interesting as well.....including "instruments".

So now the question goes to..."if God hadn't wanted us to fly/cure cancer/study/discern"....why didn't he give us wings, and why did he give us discernment, etc.

I'm not sure if I'm up to the pay grade for this but it seems to me that if we believe, as I submit we do as a nation, that Israel should be protected....it (may be) Gods will that we do (protect them)...and that's why we're here. I ain't gonna speak for God. (Although there are plenty here that will).

That aside....it (seems like) the right thing to do...now, I don't know enough about world politics to know who's double dealing (including us), sending spies (which hasn't changed for time immemorial), and then deciding who's right (everyone thinks they're on God's side).

It seems to me that the right thing to do is to protect those who have been victimized and, Hezbollah among others have clearly put their mission out as to annihilate those who deviate from their spectrum even moderately, while we (even as we do all kinds of things that later, 35 years or so, are deemed horrible at minimum) at least on the surface appear to be doing the right thing.

(Jesus....even as I type this I recognize the hypocrisy....but maybe we're just the least worst).

I'm so glad I'm not the Prez.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 10/14/2012 3:52:41 PM >

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Israel - 10/14/2012 6:34:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

How serious can anyone take the palestinians when they claim israel is occupying palestinian lands?

Israel has a right to exist, and has defended that right through force of arms. And frankly, upon the next provocation needs to conquer more to pass the message to the arabs that if you don't want peace - fine. We can work it that way too.

The claim has been made that in 1948 before the Arab armies attacked Israel, the IDF destroyed 531 Palestinian villages and drove off 800,000 Palestinians. The Israel story is that the Palestinians left 'voluntarily.'

In Israel all land is owned by the State, as I understand it, so Israel felt justified to give or lease the 'vacant' Palestinian properties, many of which were owned by Arabs for hundreds of years, to Jews.

And frankly, it seems that Israel needs no provocations to continue to colonize the West Bank and impose martial law on Palestinian villages.

So now, allow me to ask these two questions of Phydeaux or anyone else who wishes to answer:

1. The IDF is a mighty force. They occupy a large portion of West Bank land. The Palestinians have no army or air force. So how are the Palestinians, huddled in their crowded cities and poor villages, a threat to Israel? IOWs, how is the occupation and colonization justified?

2. Why is it that we in the United States only hear Israel's side of the story but never the Palestinians'? Do we suffer from media and political bias? Have we succumbed to propaganda?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 10/14/2012 6:56:56 PM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Israel - 10/14/2012 8:18:43 PM

kdsub

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quote:

The Palestinians have no army or air force. So how are the Palestinians, huddled in their crowded cities and poor villages, a threat to Israel?

Vince it has never been JUST the Palestinians that is the... or at least a... major problem. In fact the problems roots have never been exclusively with Israel. The root is the hasty UN proclamation that gave a nation to Israel without an agreement with its neighbors.

After they were a sovereign nation they had a right to defend themselves.

I also take exception to your contention that we…meaning those in the US only get one side… Is that the case with you?…It certainly is not me or anyone I know.

I will say that most news services give the facts but they are filtered through a point of view. This is the same world wide but the facts are facts even if given different priorities. You …I.. all of us just have to listen with an open mind.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:05:20 AM

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

How serious can anyone take the palestinians when they claim israel is occupying palestinian lands?

Israel has a right to exist, and has defended that right through force of arms. And frankly, upon the next provocation needs to conquer more to pass the message to the arabs that if you don't want peace - fine. We can work it that way too.

The claim has been made that in 1948 before the Arab armies attacked Israel, the IDF destroyed 531 Palestinian villages and drove off 800,000 Palestinians. The Israel story is that the Palestinians left 'voluntarily.' In Israel all land is owned by the State, as I understand it, so Israel felt justified to give or lease the 'vacant' Palestinian properties, many of which were owned by Arabs for hundreds of years, to Jews.

It did with some land as legally specified under the Mandate but much of Israel is still on public land. Furthermore there is truth to the claim many Arabs left, as noted historian Benny Morris noted http://elderofziyon.blogspot.ie/2008/02/benny-morris-letter-to-irish-times.html a historiain many pro-Palestinians prolifically use so his word must be balanced. That isn't to say some Israeli troops didn't drive some Palestinians off their land. Then again the Jordanians and Egyptians did the same to Jews. Why no mention of them, eh?

quote:

And frankly, it seems that Israel needs no provocations to continue to colonize the West Bank and impose martial law on Palestinian villages.

Your knowledge seems lacking to say the least. Martial law is only applied in Area C where both settlers and Palestinians are under the same legal rules, based on Israeli law.

quote:

2. Why is it that we in the United States only hear Israel's side of the story but never the Palestinians'? Do we suffer from media and political bias? Have we succumbed to propaganda?

Have you succumbed to propaganda yourself? The NYT, LAT, NPR, PBS, National Georgraphic etc. frequently produce material very sympathetic to Palestinians to say the least.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 10/15/2012 12:29:08 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:17:13 AM

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From: Sydney Australia
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Here's a perspective on Israel/Palestine that comes straight from the heart of the Israeli establishment - the son of an IDF war hero who tragically lost a niece in a suicide bombing.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article32739.htm

I don't get the impression that many Americans have heard this perspective but it's really worth watching if you want to understand the situation in Israel and Occupied Palestine.

I'd love to hear your reaction.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/15/2012 12:19:41 AM >

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(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 3:27:49 AM

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Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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~FR~

Miko Peled has earned quite a reputation on the boycott-Israel circuit even though AFAIK he seems to be a relative newbie. He advocates Israel's dissolution and has earned notoriety http://thecjn.ca/node/89740 for telling outright lies about established historical facts of the conflict, e.g. blaming Israel for starting the 1948-9 War of Independence and the Six Day War so in my humble opinion anything he says is tainted. In all fairness, turning very well established historical facts on their heads would require the input of an illustrious historian for anyone to even consider taking such claims seriously but unfortunately Mr. Peled is not the most qualified of individuals. When I said that to a chap on another forum recently, he retorted by saying Peled was qualified as "sixth degree black belt" who runs a popular "karate school." in the US.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 10/15/2012 4:16:32 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 5:00:33 AM

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

How serious can anyone take the palestinians when they claim israel is occupying palestinian lands?

Israel has a right to exist, and has defended that right through force of arms. And frankly, upon the next provocation needs to conquer more to pass the message to the arabs that if you don't want peace - fine. We can work it that way too.

Are you seriously suggesting Palestinians have no right, historically, to those same lands ? History doesnt exactly suggest you are right.

I know the answer you will give but live in hope for a rational explaination.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 5:06:50 AM

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From: Sydney Australia
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Anaxagoras, The invitation to comment was a generic one to everyone, not one to you personally.

It is quite unnecessary for me to ask for your comments, I know what they will be in advance. As you do habitually, I knew you would denigrate the messenger. Everytime there is a different interpretation of events to your own, you attack the messenger. So thanks for your response even though it was totally unnecessary.

I expect people will form their own views about Mr Peled with or without your input. His interpretation of events is broadly shared by a wide range of people, including many distinguished scholars who participate in the academic boycott of Israel. I'm confident people will make their own assessment of him including deciding whether he is the fabulist you claim he is

For anyone interested in reading more by Miko Peled, he blogs at http://mikopeled.com/ The following is from his blog:
Miko Peled is a peace activist who dares to say in public what others still choose to deny. He has credibility, so when he debunks myths that Jews around the world hold with blind loyalty, people listen. Miko was born in Jerusalem in 1961 into a well known Zionist family. His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence. His father, Matti Peled was a young officer in the war of 1948 and a general in the war of 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and the Sinai.

Miko’s unlikely opinions reflect his father’s legacy. General Peled was a war hero turned peacemaker. The general clearly stated that contrary to claims made later, the 1967 war was one of choice, and not because there was no existential threat to the state of Israel. He then dedicated his life to the achievement of Israeli Palestinian peace.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 10/15/2012 5:54:16 AM >

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RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 7:41:05 AM

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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Miko’s unlikely opinions reflect his father’s legacy. General Peled was a war hero turned peacemaker. The general clearly stated that contrary to claims made later, the 1967 war was one of choice, and not because there was no existential threat to the state of Israel. He then dedicated his life to the achievement of Israeli Palestinian peace.

In the video posted above Miko reveals the assessment made by the IDF leadership that the Egyptian army was in 1967 yet 18 months away from full strength or attack capability (I forget his exact terminology) The IDF brass requested and received permission from the Political leadership to attack while Egypt was vulnerable. Miko asks why Zionist supporters never question how the IDF could be so successful against three armies in six days. Were they so Mighty or were their opponents so weak? Makes you say "hmmmmm . . . "

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 8:22:25 AM

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quote:

I will say that most news services give the facts but they are filtered through a point of view. This is the same world wide but the facts are facts even if given different priorities. You …I.. all of us just have to listen with an open mind.

Butch, if as you say "facts are facts" we would have no need for investigative historians. Propaganda would be a moot endeavor. May i suggest The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe . . .
In this controversial new book, a prominent Israeli historian at Haifa University revisits the formative period of the State of Israel. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord during the War of Independence, he offers archival evidence to demonstrate that a central plank in Israel's founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. This book is a passionate plea to acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 as the root cause of the ongoing Palestine-Israel conflict.

A good chance for you to listen with an open mind.

Regards

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 8:24:45 AM

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quote:

Are you seriously suggesting Palestinians have no right, historically, to those same lands ? History doesnt exactly suggest you are right.

Rights? Shit. Apparently, many have DEEDS.

But they paved over Palestine and built them a parking lot, as the song goes.

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 8:40:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Are you seriously suggesting Palestinians have no right, historically, to those same lands ? History doesnt exactly suggest you are right.

Rights? Shit. Apparently, many have DEEDS.

But they paved over Palestine and built them a parking lot, as the song goes.

No arguments from me on that score Vincent.

So here we have it, not only historical rights, but legal rights. no doubt some here will continue to disagree.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 9:08:15 AM

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quote:

In all fairness, turning very well established historical facts on their heads would require the input of an illustrious historian for anyone to even consider taking such claims seriously but unfortunately Mr. Peled is not the most qualified of individuals.

Neither was Jane Fonda in 1970. But she was right!

(in reply to Anaxagoras)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 9:52:24 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

Butch, if as you say "facts are facts" we would have no need for investigative historians. Propaganda would be a moot endeavor

I agree that is what I meant by point of view...But...all must be put in perspective. The US form of free press makes it virtually impossible for the facts to be hidden over time anyway. We can be proud of this. I believe this applies to all western democratic governments and their free presses. It may take a little time and interest must be pointed to a story but the truth almost always comes through.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:04:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, if as you say "facts are facts" we would have no need for investigative historians. Propaganda would be a moot endeavor

I agree that is what I meant by point of view...But...all must be put in perspective. The US form of free press makes it virtually impossible for the facts to be hidden over time anyway. We can be proud of this. I believe this applies to all western democratic governments and their free presses. It may take a little time and interest must be pointed to a story but the truth almost always comes through.

Butch

You are correct Butch, but I would like to add a caveat. While the facts emerge over time, often nothing actually gets done about shameful events in history.

There are dozens of examples I could mention but I will just use one. Back in the early seventies, there was a concerted plot by our security services to smear, and by doing so scupper any chance of election, of Harold Wilson and other leading members of the llabour party (left leaning)

One of those asked to get involded in a campaign called "Clockwork Orange" was Colin Wallace. he was tried and jailed for manslaughter, but cleared ten years later. In effect he was framed as he knew too much. While we have had several inquiries into the issue, the cover up continues as no one has been charged, despite evidence being available.

This is just one story, among many, of events being hushed up in the name of national security. IE, the press and media know it took place, the people know it took place, the lawyers and legal eagles know it took place. But, under the guise of "national security" it was hushed up.

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:05:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I agree that is what I meant by point of view...But...all must be put in perspective. The US form of free press makes it virtually impossible for the facts to be hidden over time anyway. We can be proud of this. I believe this applies to all western democratic governments and their free presses. It may take a little time and interest must be pointed to a story but the truth almost always comes through.

Butch

Quite possibly, but the facts don't necessarily come through where people are going to read them, or even know that they're available to be read, do they?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:11:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Quite possibly, but the facts don't necessarily come through where people are going to read them, or even know that they're available to be read, do they?

True enough moonie. I only became aware of Colin Wallace through reading about the late great Paul Foot.

(in reply to Moonhead)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 12:18:51 PM

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You get that a lot, and that's one thing the internet hasn't helped a bit with, sadly. It's actually a bit annoying that it's done sod all to improve that state of affairs when you look at some of the bizarre and histrionic claims idiots like Timothy Leary were making for it back before anyone besides a few heeled ageing bohemians had any real access to it.
(Sorry I missed your welcome back post on Friday, btw: you'd posted that after the auction I was watching on ebay finished with me getting sniped and I'd logged off the internet in a sulk...)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 1:23:49 PM

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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I will say that most news services give the facts but they are filtered through a point of view. This is the same world wide but the facts are facts even if given different priorities. You …I.. all of us just have to listen with an open mind.

Butch, if as you say "facts are facts" we would have no need for investigative historians. Propaganda would be a moot endeavor. May i suggest The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe . . .
In this controversial new book, a prominent Israeli historian at Haifa University revisits the formative period of the State of Israel. Decisively debunking the myth that the Palestinian population left of their own accord during the War of Independence, he offers archival evidence to demonstrate that a central plank in Israel's founding ideology was the forcible removal of the indigenous population. This book is a passionate plea to acknowledge the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948 as the root cause of the ongoing Palestine-Israel conflict.

Would that happen to be the same Ian Pappe who has made up historical facts and quotations? http://elderofziyon.blogspot.ie/2011/11/darling-historian-of-anti-zionists.html and to be blunt I find it more than a little ironic that you then exhort those that disagree to listen with an open mind when you have ignored all key points that do not suit your stance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Miko’s unlikely opinions reflect his father’s legacy. General Peled was a war hero turned peacemaker. The general clearly stated that contrary to claims made later, the 1967 war was one of choice, and not because there was no existential threat to the state of Israel. He then dedicated his life to the achievement of Israeli Palestinian peace.

In the video posted above Miko reveals the assessment made by the IDF leadership that the Egyptian army was in 1967 yet 18 months away from full strength or attack capability (I forget his exact terminology) The IDF brass requested and received permission from the Political leadership to attack while Egypt was vulnerable. Miko asks why Zionist supporters never question how the IDF could be so successful against three armies in six days. Were they so Mighty or were their opponents so weak? Makes you say "hmmmmm . . . "

You are in Six Day War conspiracy mode again, despite the fact that I reminded you that Egypt closed the Straights of Tiran, blockaded Israel's port, thereby breaking the 1956 peace agreement, and worst of all Nasser ejected the UN UNIFIL peace keeping troops out of the Sinai which were there to be a buffer between the two states. Nasser made many public pronouncements about his intent to invade very soon, and armies amassed on Israel's borders. These are absolute facts, and still you doubt that Egypt intended to invade? That could only come form someone that only hears what they want to hear. That's perfectly fine but its a bit rich to then accuse others of having "succumbed to propaganda"!

-------

BTW I don't know why Tweak still posts messages at me (despite what she stated above) because I've made it clear that I won't respond to her anymore, hence the "FR" above.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 10/15/2012 2:16:44 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Israel - 10/15/2012 3:54:22 PM

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

(Sorry I missed your welcome back post on Friday, btw: you'd posted that after the auction I was watching on ebay finished with me getting sniped and I'd logged off the internet in a sulk...)

Wow, you got the snip on Ebay....... ^5 bro

(in reply to Moonhead)

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