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Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 10/3/2012 10:16:18 AM

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Both of the earlier threads are too old to add comments:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3398624
http://www.collarchat.com/m_3449895/tm.htm

While I have zero sympathy for the defendant, having read the federal indictment earlier (I can't find it now but there was a link in one or both of the above threads), I do agree with the defense attorneys on the point discussed in this article:

Attorney wants evidence excluded in sex slave case

The details of consensual sex that occurred between a man and his wife should not be used as evidence that the man sexually abuses women, a defense attorney in a southwest Missouri sex slave case said in court documents filed this week.

Susan Dill, attorney for Edward Bagley, filed a motion Monday asking U.S. Magistrate Richard Larsen to preclude the government's use of evidence regarding consensual sex between Bagley and his co-defendant wife, Marilyn.

..."The government must stay out of the bedrooms (and all other private places) of mutually consenting adults, no matter how violent or shocking the activity," said John Katz, a Silver Spring, Md., defense attorney whose law office specializes in sexual freedom issues. "Lawrence v. Texas underlines that the government may not penalize consensual sodomy between adults, no matter how much such activity offends many people on religious grounds. Once we let government restrict our neighbors' sexual activity, it is just a matter of time before government sticks its nose further into our otherwise private lives."

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/25/2012 10:01:53 AM

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The defense has asked Jay Wiseman to testify:

Missouri sex slave case may hinge on expert view of subculture

...In court records, a government expert already has opined that the young woman was “tortured,” while defense lawyers have argued that the conduct was “legal” and “consensual.”

Judges often permit testimony from witnesses designated as experts because of their education, training or unique life experiences. They explain areas with which jurors may be unfamiliar, such as complex financial matters or scientific forensic evidence.

And though unusual, experts sometimes are called to address exotic sexual subcultures unexplored by the typical juror.

The government’s expert is the well-traveled Park Dietz, a California forensic psychiatrist who testified in the cases against Jeffrey Dahmer, John W. Hinckley Jr. and Andrea Yates. Dietz also testified for federal prosecutors here at the 2007 trial of Lisa Montgomery for the killing of Bobbie Jo Stinnett and the kidnapping of her unborn baby.

Prosecutors asked Dietz to be prepared to testify about what is appropriate and accepted “within the rules and regulations of the BDSM lifestyle” and what clearly exceeds them. Dietz’s bill to the government could run up to $84,900, prosecutors estimated.

He also is expected to testify about other aspects of the case.

To counter Dietz, Bagley’s lawyer asked the court to pay $32,900 for her own expert — Jay Wiseman, a California lawyer, lecturer, author and, since 1975, an active member of the San Francisco Bay area sadomasochism community, according to his resume on file with the court.

“Wiseman is … uniquely qualified to provide insight to the court and jury as to whether the conduct engaged in by the defendants and alleged victim are as extreme and sadistic as the government would have the world believe,” wrote Susan Dill, Edward Bagley’s defense lawyer.

But U.S. District Judge Dean Whipple wrote recently that he is still not convinced that expert testimony on the BDSM subculture would be admissible for either side at trial.

“Instead, it appears that the main issue is whether the alleged victim consented to the conduct complained of,” Whipple wrote in an order setting next week’s hearing.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/11/25/3933400/missouri-sex-slave-case-may-hinge.html#storylink=cpy

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/25/2012 10:06:17 AM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Prosecutors asked Dietz to be prepared to testify about what is appropriate and accepted “within the rules and regulations of the BDSM lifestyle” and what clearly exceeds them.

Oh lord, this should be good. I do hope they publish these "rules and regulations of the BDSM lifestyle" for us.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/25/2012 10:30:59 AM

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Jay weisman has been off & on this forum for years. While his personal tastes do run sadistic, he's not one of the "one size fits all" doms. I'd be more comfortable with him "dictating rules & regulations" than a forensic psychiatrist famous for studying jeff dahmer

Eta f'n blackberry spelling :(

< Message edited by theRose4U -- 11/25/2012 10:32:11 AM >

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/26/2012 5:24:25 PM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
Oh lord, this should be good. I do hope they publish these "rules and regulations of the BDSM lifestyle" for us.

They're more like guidelines

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/26/2012 7:03:58 PM

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So we now have "experts" on bdsm. lol....that's just um....so hilariously funny. lol

Yeah yeah, Wiseman's been around forever, and writes books and goes on speaking tours, but imo...that doesn't make him an expert, it makes him someone who has been into bdsm a long time and tells people how HE does things.

Just another thing in bdsm that leaves me rolling my eyes and shaking my head.

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 11/26/2012 7:05:19 PM >

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/26/2012 7:47:56 PM

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In the legal world, he definitely meets the qualifications to be considered an "expert." Of course, experts can disagree. It happens all the time in litigation, where each side has an expert that is very qualified, but disagree with each other in almost every way.

Basically, it means that his opinion lines up with the defense attorney's, and he's written and given talks on the subject.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 1:51:36 PM

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Hi kalikshama. This link isn't working for Me. Attorney wants evidence excluded in sex slave case

I don't know if I'd want Jay if I was working for the defense. I mean no offense to him. I love the guy. Yet, he has been actively speaking out against various forms of breath play for years. As soon as the prosecution gets to cross examine him about what is <cough> acceptable <cough> in the BDSM community, it may not go well for the defendant.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 1:59:07 PM

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Here's a replacement for the link in the OP: http://www.joplinglobe.com/crime_and_courts/x766465122/Bagley-attorney-wants-sex-evidence-excluded-in-sex-slave-case

As to Jay Wiseman, I agree that a good cross examination by the prosecution would hurt the defendant.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 11/27/2012 2:00:11 PM >

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 2:12:09 PM

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Thank you for the replacement link. That worked much better!

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 2:45:09 PM

Aswad

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Let's say 10% of the total population practices kink (for some definition thereof). That makes it outside the general norms, but there is, of course, a norm in this subpopulation. But about 10% of the kinky subpopulation practices "hard" kink (again for some definition thereof). That puts those outside the kinky norms, but there's again a norm among them. And 10% of those practice far out kinks (ditto). And so forth.

Dealing with this in a court of law seems sort of absurd, because it's so arbitrary. Is the standard what one in ten do? One in a hundred? One in a thousand? One in a million? One in a billion? When discussing what is acceptable and not, we should seek to define it in two ways: (a) in terms of objective criterion, and (b) in terms of to what extent the government is allowed to decide what goes and what doesn't. The jurors, of course, are supposed to safeguard the latter (e.g. jury nullification, when called for, is an important safeguard). Personally, I would also add the question of to what extent our fellow citizens are allowed to decide stuff for us, but for the most part that's subsumed in the second question.

I don't see how Jay Wiseman testifying on the norms of the top tenth, top hundredth, or whatever, of the curve will add anything to the trial, save to maybe point out that an objective definition of abuse in terms of consent isn't entirely theoretical, which doesn't strike me as difficult to explain without the need for an "expert".

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 2:51:59 PM

absolutchocolat

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This is going to be an interesting case...the defense seems like it's going to have to pull some tricks out the of the bag to wiggle out of those charges. I can't imagine a jury acquitting the couple of any of them.

< Message edited by absolutchocolat -- 11/27/2012 3:26:03 PM >

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/27/2012 3:18:27 PM

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I don't know much about this case at all; so I'm approaching it from an outsiders perspective.

My take is that things that go on behind closed doors that are 'consensual' are indeed just that - something that has been agreed between them and is really nobody else's business but their own.
However, if one or other of the party does something that the other didn't want or ask for, and is now complaining about it, makes it point of law in that the alleged offender has committed an act considered to be illegal.

It reminds me of the times when it was considered fine and dandy for a husband to demand and do pretty much what he wanted with his wife and as such, the concept of a husband raping a wife was not considered a crime - from a legal PoV. This is still true of some extreme views of some other cultures.
Over the last few decades and the expansion of women's rights etc, it has now been recognised in a lot of 'western society' that the husband can no longer rely on the old attitudes that he is lord and master over his wife to the extent that she is no more than a posession to do as he wishes.
And a lot of laws have now been repealed/added to reflect that modern attitude of our society.

From what I can see of this case, if she didn't want it and didn't ask for it (literally), he no longer had the right to administer it - regardless of what the dynamic was in their household, BDSM or otherwise. He simply went beyond the boundaries and has broken the law.
I don't see that the diversity of any BDSM antics really come into it. Lets face it, every single kink or vanilla dynamic is fairly unique to the people involved.
She has the right to complain and make a case against him.
I'm not sure how effectively he's going to defend such actions - I really can't see any defense at all.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 11/29/2012 9:43:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
Oh lord, this should be good. I do hope they publish these "rules and regulations of the BDSM lifestyle" for us.

They're more like guidelines

What that we now need to install air bags on subs to prevent damage? Get medical consent & auto clave certification forms before needle play? Bras saying "to prevent head damage do not look directly here while walking or carrying objects"?

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/6/2012 11:49:30 PM

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I have talked listened and watched . I have broke down the walls that once made me wonder if someone who wanted to be hurt was mental . I have come out of the closet and seen a light few do . I still have questions with out answers .
When is a mind developed enough to be able to say I am a sub or slave . We look at people men 21 who say I am a Dom or Master and tell them to grow up first then say that . When a woman of 18 says I am a sub or slave it's ok . I
know women's minds develope earlier than men but with some of the choices I have seen my daughter make I wonder if that is true when it comes to sex . Let me be honest I sometimes look back and ask myself "what the hell was I thinking ".
Everything about this is wrong . The way it started and everything after is wrong but something about the way it is being handled in the court just scares the hell out of me . I saw where all they wanted to say was he had a gun ! Charges are being brought up on him having a gun !
I have not read anything about the gun being seen or used at any time but they still are screaming about it . So if he gets off the charges about her then they have gun charges . Wait has anyone asked her what she wanted or is she so mentaly handicapped
she can't talk ? Is she so ill she can't talk ? Or is it the courts don't want her talking ? This is going to be a long case and even though we are not in on it we may become part of it in the end .

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/7/2012 7:16:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So we now have "experts" on bdsm. lol....that's just um....so hilariously funny. lol

Yeah yeah, Wiseman's been around forever, and writes books and goes on speaking tours, but imo...that doesn't make him an expert, it makes him someone who has been into bdsm a long time and tells people how HE does things.

Just another thing in bdsm that leaves me rolling my eyes and shaking my head.

You would prefer jeff dahmers shrink who read 50 shades as reference material to dictate to the government the one weel twue way?

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/7/2012 7:21:17 AM

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I'd consider Jay an expert. He's been around a long time. He knows about what he does. He's got more medical training that I do, beyond doubt.

He's quite a friendly man. Very personable.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/7/2012 6:37:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So we now have "experts" on bdsm. lol....that's just um....so hilariously funny. lol

Yeah yeah, Wiseman's been around forever, and writes books and goes on speaking tours, but imo...that doesn't make him an expert, it makes him someone who has been into bdsm a long time and tells people how HE does things.

Just another thing in bdsm that leaves me rolling my eyes and shaking my head.

Jay Wiseman has been testifying for the defense in cases involving BDSM deaths and injury for quite awhile. Typically his expertise has been on matters involving bondage or breath play gone wrong.
I can see that it would not be any kind of stretch for him to discuss any aspect of BDSM and be accepted as an expert.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/8/2012 2:04:39 AM

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Exactly why I wouldn't want him as a defense witness.

I happen to like Jay. He's a nice guy. However, anyone worth their salt could get him on the stand and lead him to admit his personal feelings about breath play. He's been very outspoken about it for years and as a defense witness, it's going to hurt the case.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Update on the Missouri sex slave prosecution - 12/8/2012 1:24:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

So we now have "experts" on bdsm. lol....that's just um....so hilariously funny. lol

Yeah yeah, Wiseman's been around forever, and writes books and goes on speaking tours, but imo...that doesn't make him an expert, it makes him someone who has been into bdsm a long time and tells people how HE does things.

Just another thing in bdsm that leaves me rolling my eyes and shaking my head.

You would prefer jeff dahmers shrink who read 50 shades as reference material to dictate to the government the one weel twue way?

I don't see anyone as an expert in bdsm. There are no rules. Hell, if Wiseman was to give a lecture on the dangers of breathplay I'd roll my eyes and laugh because Master and I do lots and lots of breathplay and not the type of just him having his hands around my neck.

I see Wiseman as just another person writing a book on what HE thinks it should or should not be. There are a TON of bdsm people who write books. Big deal.

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