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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 10:01:46 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

If so, I can see that definition. But what would you call a scene that's purpose is to lower a sub's self-esteem?

Most would just call that abuse.

I agree completely with what LA is saying. Degradation does not have to be public, however.  For many, "toilet service" is very degrading,  but the slave's esteem is ultimately heightened at having the ability to perform such service.  At the time, she (he, etc.) may feel lower than low, but the effect of that is not necessarily a bad thing.  Having performed some very difficult and degrading acts for my Master, I have become more bonded to him in the long run, journeyed deeper into my submission, and have become far stronger than I have ever been.  Now, if he were to randomly tell me what a piece of shit I am and not give a damn about me, my self esteem would be in the toilet (been there, done that).

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 10:30:10 PM   
BreakMeShakeMe


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I can't decribe either differently. The only way I can describe both is something I personally will have no part of. Humiliation... degrading...granted are fine for others... just not me. I've worked to hard to be accepted...by me. for me. To allow someone... to try and bring me down. Not even in playtime will I allow this. And won't play with one that wants to go that route.

Now some will argue that name calling falls in this category. I do not agree. I find them to be terms of endearment. There's so many different types of degrading.. humiliation. And I always make sure the definitions are defined before play time. Crossing a line ends playtime completely. There's no ooops i'm sorry... let's continue. It stops right there.

But got to admit..I find it interesting... others views on this... thanks for the post Cin.

Jessica


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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 10:40:47 PM   
ownedgirlie


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It's funny (but maybe not really), I never enjoyed it until I met Master.  Prior to him, humiliation always felt damaging, and degradation crushed my spirit.  Maybe it is that Master built me up so much, that I have this "I dare you" attitude.  I end up wanting him to be as brutal as possible, and I know I can take it because every fiber in my being knows that in reality, I will rise up and stand tall to anyone but him.  His humiliation and degradation of me make me feel my submission, and make me feel his incredible power over me.  In my day to day life, when stresses come, I think, "Oh hell, if I could handle such n such from Master, surely this is a no-brainer." 

I know it's not for everyone.  It wasn't something I responded well to before him.

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 11:18:02 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelface183

you know someone wrote a great essay about this recently...LA do you know where it is?


Sadly I wrote guite a long essay on this, and lost it when my computer crashed.  I'd be interested in reading it. I'll try search.

An here I thought you'd been peeking at my essay on it.  Which I do have btw, want me to post it?

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 11:19:25 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelface183

Found it!http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=354294

Padriag wrote it and I thought that it was pretty good...

Doh!  That'll teach me to read the whole thread before replying.  LOL

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/13/2006 11:37:09 PM   
Sensualips


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quote:

what would you call a scene that's purpose is to lower a sub's self-esteem


Short sighted.

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/14/2006 3:55:19 AM   
Kedikat


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I have a sort of tough time explaining what humiliation is with me. The physical acts that many name as humiliation are entwined with love and passion in me.

I have played with several, and enjoyed the times. But I draw a line of doing several acts of " humiliation " with them, because I am not emotionally attached enough. The inspiration is lacking to take that much of them. So is it an act of humiliation then? I think it isn't totally. It is more to confirm the submission, and my taking the submission fully. Of my wanting them that much, that I demand to do those things.

In that way it doesn't seem humiliating at all. But lengthy and difficult to explain. Never mind understand from the other side. Especially when ticked off on a list of fetishes. The one I love and take as Mine, will be subject to many humiliations that others were not desired enough to suffer or enjoy.

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/14/2006 5:33:39 AM   
heartfeltsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

I have a sort of tough time explaining what humiliation is with me. The physical acts that many name as humiliation are entwined with love and passion in me.

I have played with several, and enjoyed the times. But I draw a line of doing several acts of " humiliation " with them, because I am not emotionally attached enough. The inspiration is lacking to take that much of them. So is it an act of humiliation then? I think it isn't totally. It is more to confirm the submission, and my taking the submission fully. Of my wanting them that much, that I demand to do those things.

In that way it doesn't seem humiliating at all. But lengthy and difficult to explain. Never mind understand from the other side. Especially when ticked off on a list of fetishes. The one I love and take as Mine, will be subject to many humiliations that others were not desired enough to suffer or enjoy.



From the other side, that also makes total sense to me. i play with others, (ie not in a relationship or seeking a relationship) but i don't do humiliation play with them as there is not the necessary emotional connection as a framework for that kind of play.

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 6/14/2006 5:59:14 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

If so, I can see that definition. But what would you call a scene that's purpose is to lower a sub's self-esteem?

Most would just call that abuse.

I agree completely with what LA is saying. Degradation does not have to be public, however.  For many, "toilet service" is very degrading,  but the slave's esteem is ultimately heightened at having the ability to perform such service.  At the time, she (he, etc.) may feel lower than low, but the effect of that is not necessarily a bad thing.  Having performed some very difficult and degrading acts for my Master, I have become more bonded to him in the long run, journeyed deeper into my submission, and have become far stronger than I have ever been.  Now, if he were to randomly tell me what a piece of shit I am and not give a damn about me, my self esteem would be in the toilet (been there, done that).

Ditto to it all. 

It's nice when someone else "gets" it (though it's fine when someone doesn't)

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/6/2007 12:34:14 AM   
needDomme


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Yes, I also agree.  When one is powerful enough to degrade him/herself to please the Dom/me, he/she should be quite proud of it.  Relatively few people are strong enough to do nthe same.

need

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/6/2007 3:43:59 PM   
dogthing


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"Degradation" is about "de-grading" or "down-grading" your status, position, how you appear or are seen, or people's opinions of you (perhaps including your own)
"Humiliation" (n) is an internal reaction or conflict felt when doing something that you find embarrassing or uncomfortable, which may well involve degradation. Some people may feel humiliated at expressing their feelings if it puts them in an awkward situation, even if they feel that its not degrading. They might be proud but still embarrassed.

Humiliation without degradation Some people find having to apologise to someone after they've wronged them to be deeply humiliating, but its not really “degrading” in the conventional sense except that it involves admitting that you've done something that deserves an apology and admitting to yourself that you aren't all that better than other people.
Degradation without humiliation While degradation would be humiliating to most people it might not be humiliating to others. Being turned into a pet or slave or object is a "downgrade" in most ways, but some people will eagerly accept that role and get off on the dehumanisation as a fun sexy thing without feeling at all humiliated. A passive slave may not feel humiliated or embarrassed at being treated in ways that most other people would find humiliating. They might not feel that what they are doing is degrading, or they might know but not care.
Degradation and humiliation Others will seek out that same situation and get off on the internal conflict and shame that they feel at doing and enjoying something that they feel deep down to be wrong and perverted. The raised heart-rate, the flush of blood, the knotty feeling in the pit of the stomach. Knowing that you are getting off on it and accepting that you are “that sort of person” may make it feel even more wrong, and perverted, and humiliating. It's the emotional equivalent of "pain play", except the pain that they are revelling in is "psychological" rather than physical. Edge players and thrill seekers do something similar, except the elevated physiological reaction that they are seeking is driven by a sense of fear or risk or panic or of being involved in some sort of active transgression rather than by embarrassment.
Transition In a long-term relationship involving degradation and “training”, the sub might feel deeply humiliated by their degradation to start with, but the training may be designed to help them to acclimatise and begin to see it as “normal”. They start off feeling that what they are doing is sick and they end up just enjoying it. The humiliation is burned out of them leaving them accepting their position wholeheartedly and without shame. During the transition there can be an additional degree of degradation and humiliation for them in being able to see themselves changing and in seeing their old values slipping away, knowing that they are inevitably turning into the sort of “dirty freak” (as they see it) who sees nothing wrong with that behaviour. This sensation of feeling oneself being changed into a freak and partly wanting it can also involve a sense of fear, risk, panic, transgression etc. as mentioned above.

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/6/2007 4:25:31 PM   
velvetears


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sensualips

quote:

what would you call a scene that's purpose is to lower a sub's self-esteem


Short sighted.


The Final Act

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:00:03 PM   
Ayzad


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I recently discussed this topic down to a very simple difference: humiliation is something you can easily brush away after it's done with, degradation is the same thing, just it remains with you permanently. Hence things which aren't "degrading while you do them" aren't "humiliation", just "embarassment".
Kind of puts it all in perspective, isn't it?

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:01:18 PM   
MistressDoMe


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Great thread, sometimes degradation can be fun also.

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)
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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:17:52 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

Arrgghh...It's been a long day and my brain is not on full battery. I think I now get what you are saying. You consider degradation to be putting the person into a lower place relative to other people.

If so, I can see that definition. But what would you call a scene that's purpose is to lower a sub's self-esteem?


I have to jump in on this one! 

You can Degrade the Hell out of somebody in a scene and it won't lower a sub's self-esteem, provided the Dom/me actually works on improving the subs sense of self esteem outside of scene play.   This is why it's important for Dom/mes to work with a submissives sense of self worth and esteem outside of Scene play.   Everyting inside of the BDSM scene play box is acting or living out kinky fantasies!   You can debase, degrade and humilate somebody to death in a scene without it having actually lower a subs sense of self esteem.  

From my own personal experiences I find that subs with an already low sense of self esteem don't deal well with being degraded in scene play.  Hence the importance for a Dom/me to help build or boost a submissives self esteem outside of BDSM scene play.     

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:19:25 PM   
MistressDoMe


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One man's humilation is another man's degradation.
I have had submissive's online get pissed off with me, because I called them a bitch!
lol

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:35:19 PM   
WhiplashSmile


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDoMe
One man's humilation is another man's degradation.
I have had submissive's online get pissed off with me, because I called them a bitch!
lol

Tell you what....
  • if you draw on my back and arms (body art).. I'll let you call me a bitch..
  • if you flog my back I'll give you a foot massage
  • if you hook me up to a TENS Unit (I curious as hell about them lately) I'll give you a full Body Massage.  

Is there such a thing as a  "Do Me Do You SadoMaso Dom" forget about all this D/s and submission crap, let's just play nice with one another.. LOL..    Oh Damn it, my trolling fingers have a mind of their own at times.

(in reply to MistressDoMe)
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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:42:38 PM   
SimplyMichael


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To me, what makes this stuff bad isn't what you do to someone.  I mean even if you made them pee into a bucket and drink it or lick their cum up off the floor or whatever.  It isn't the act, it is where you take them later.  Is the point to destroy their self esteem or to build it?  There is a huge difference between doing whatever act to degrade someone and then telling them later how proud you are of them for reaching inside and doing it, or in whatever way lifting them not just back up but a tiny bit higher because they went so low for you.

If instead you simply start looking for something even worse without taking care of t heir spirit, you are doing damage in my opinion.

(in reply to WhiplashSmile)
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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 7:44:05 PM   
MistressDoMe


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too funny Whiplashsmile

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RE: Humiliation vs Degradation - 5/20/2007 9:03:09 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella
However you personally interpret the words, they do have specific definitions. I will apply what appears most applicable.

Humiliation - to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes.

Degradation - 1 : the act or process of degrading (see note below)
                        2 a : decline to a low, destitute, or demoralized state
                         b : moral or intellectual decadence
Degrading -    1 a : to lower in grade, rank, or status 
                         b : to strip of rank or honors
                         c : to lower to an inferior or less effective level
                         d : to scale down in desirability or salability
                        2 a : to bring to low esteem or into disrepute
                         b : to drag down in moral or intellectual character

They are nearly synonymous. Hence I have a distinct discomfort with utilizing either. I couldn't be involved with a subbie if I didn't respect him. For the occasional scene, it can prove to be an effective mind fuck but otherwise, not my cup of tea.


You missed the definitions--they are not synonyous.

Humilaition is literally to bring low, to get near the earth (hummus).  To humiliate it to bring down, in position.

Degradation is lessening in value, to count as less in grade, to devalue.  To degrade is to find less valuable.

Usuage varies, but using denotation and etymology as a guide, one may be humiliated, may be lowered in position, but still valued (perhaps even prized for grace in lowering).  The one who is degraded cannot be precious by the very meaning of the word--the point is they are less valuable. 

Both are legit kinks, but by no means can they be synonymous save by the sloppiest usage.

(in reply to GddssBella)
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