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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 8:30:13 PM   
descrite


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quote:

You can measure cuts and bruises, but you can't measure how much "harm" it has done a person. What if they are a serious masochist? What if they have dead nerve endings and just don't feel it?


Good points.

On the former, informed consent obviates harm. And there are even limits on that...check out the guy in Wisconsin who was arrested for lopping off his own arm, or the German cannibal murderer.

On the latter, again, we're talking physical damage. We can measure it. Measuring "pain" is ambiguous.


quote:

What if they got drugged and raped? No injury given, they used a condom so no STD's or pregnancy. By all accounts they didn't undergo any physical "harm" but they know it happened.



If you steal my car while I'm sleeping and put gas back in the tank, you've still stolen my car. I was deprived of its use for a time. You have taken something which was not yours by fraud or force.

And I can pretty much measure being drugged, too. We call that "poisoning." It's a physical attack.

There is an objective reality. Feelings are necessarily subjective. I do love me some Heinlein:
quote:

How anybody expects a man to stay in business with every two-bit wowser in the country claiming a veto over what we can say and can't say and what we can show and what we can't show — it's enough to make you throw up. The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown men live on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak.



Censorship for "bullying" is the same as censoring for "smut." Those of us who enjoy kink ought remember that, most especially.

Don't change my world because some kid killed herself. Lots of kids kill themselves, for lots of reason (most of them stupid, from an adult perspective-- not that the kids are stupid, but that the world really does get better as a grownup...see Dan Savage's "It Gets Better" Project); we really shouldn't custom-tailor our planet for sensitive 15 year-olds. I would like to be able to discuss matters other than brightly-colored bracelets and talking ponies, please.




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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 8:46:51 PM   
angelikaJ


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Why is domestic violence such a big deal and the variations in BDSM something we practice?

Consent.

If someone doesn't want to look at smut they are free to close the book or change the channel or walk out of the theater.

People don't choose to be bullied.
They may not have the ability to stand up for themselves or fight back, but that is not the same as choice/consent.

Women can and do get restraining orders for emotional/verbal abuse if it has caused them emotional harm.
Minors can be removed from the home for the same reason.
That is not considered to be free speech.
Harassment is not considered to be free speech.
Stalking is not considered to be okay.

Threatening someone with bodily harm is against the law.
Why isn't that free speech?
To you, it is just words.


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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 11:15:32 PM   
descrite


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quote:

People don't choose to be bullied.


Sure they do. You don't have to read anything in your Inbox. You don't have to read anything online. In fact, there's rather large thread on this very forum about how good some people are at ignoring messages sent directly to them.

A threat is assault; we already have that law. Why have another that does the same thing?

If women can get restraining orders for verbal abuse, why do we need another law called "bullying"?

There are dozens of ads on billboards on my way in to work. I drive right past them-- I have no clue what they say, at all.

That's the nice part of words: they only work with your participation. They can't hurt you unless you let them.

Let's get a laboratory, and put ten people in it. You and I can take turns: we'll walk up and down the row of people, calling them the worst words we can think of for 10 hours each day. We'll do this for a week (we're going to get hoarse, I assure you). At the end of that time, let's see how many kill themselves.

I'll bet on "none." I did that to people-- in the military. Not only did they all survive, they're all pretty successful right now. It was done to me; it sucked, and wasn't fun, and I never once considered offing myself. I was not much older than the kids we're talking about right now.

If we have a society where the worst thing one person can do to another is call them bad names, we have the best society, ever, on the face of the planet.

Better still? It is nerd valhalla: in a battle of words, the weakest, most pathetic physical specimen can enter the fray in total equivalence with the football hero or big-titted cheerleader. On a battleground of words, bodies are all equal-- brains can compete.

This is something to be lauded and celebrated, not bemoaned and feared.





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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 11:23:01 PM   
SpaceSpank


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You can choose to ignore an e-mail or a text.

But you cannot choose for someone else to ignore the same. You can also choose to think they are just lying, but you can't choose what someone else believes.

Take your laboratory experiment. Now send those people home. Bring in all their friends and family, start telling them that they were saying/doing horrible things. Maybe even show them proof (it can be manufactured or real). Keep doing that for months, destroy their lives even without sending them a direct message once if you don't want to. get them fired, make their significant other break up with them, have their children removed from their home. Make their friends and family question, doubt, and possibly even alienate them.

Keep doing that for a few months, maybe longer. Make sure you include any new friends, and make sure you never let them get away from it by moving or anything.

Then tell me how many either kill themselves or seriously think about about.

It's just words after all.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 11:30:02 PM   
sexyred1


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It actually sickens me that someone on this thread, a male, is so lacking in any type of empathy that he blames a teen age victim by justifying bullying by saying it is only words.


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RE: Bullying? - 10/14/2012 11:56:29 PM   
SpaceSpank


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I wouldn't say he's justifying bullying. I honestly think he just can't see how "just words" can cause such life changing, and often debilitating damage to a person.
That he equates it to talking down to a bunch of soldiers who willingly put themselves into the military, or ignoring billboards as he's driving into work shows he really can't make the connection.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 12:30:53 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

It actually sickens me that someone on this thread, a male, is so lacking in any type of empathy that he blames a teen age victim by justifying bullying by saying it is only words.
I can only agree with you, Red. It amazes Me that we are now considering that the constant bombardment of hurt of a thirteen year old is going to be compared to adults in the military. Probably similar to the parents of the kids who were the driving forces behind it, saying that what their kids were doing wasn't that bad.



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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 2:25:56 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

quote:

People don't choose to be bullied.


Sure they do. You don't have to read anything in your Inbox. You don't have to read anything online. In fact, there's rather large thread on this very forum about how good some people are at ignoring messages sent directly to them.

A threat is assault; we already have that law. Why have another that does the same thing?

If women can get restraining orders for verbal abuse, why do we need another law called "bullying"?

There are dozens of ads on billboards on my way in to work. I drive right past them-- I have no clue what they say, at all.

That's the nice part of words: they only work with your participation. They can't hurt you unless you let them.

Let's get a laboratory, and put ten people in it. You and I can take turns: we'll walk up and down the row of people, calling them the worst words we can think of for 10 hours each day. We'll do this for a week (we're going to get hoarse, I assure you). At the end of that time, let's see how many kill themselves.

I'll bet on "none." I did that to people-- in the military. Not only did they all survive, they're all pretty successful right now. It was done to me; it sucked, and wasn't fun, and I never once considered offing myself. I was not much older than the kids we're talking about right now.

If we have a society where the worst thing one person can do to another is call them bad names, we have the best society, ever, on the face of the planet.

Better still? It is nerd valhalla: in a battle of words, the weakest, most pathetic physical specimen can enter the fray in total equivalence with the football hero or big-titted cheerleader. On a battleground of words, bodies are all equal-- brains can compete.

This is something to be lauded and celebrated, not bemoaned and feared.







If women can get restraining orders for verbal abuse, why do we need another law called "bullying"?

Because being bullied as a teen is not the same as being in a domestic violence situation.

(Although the outcome: PTSD may be the same.)

And once again, there is no intention of deliberate harming the people who are in basic training by their trainers and COs.

edit- just 'cuz



< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 10/15/2012 2:45:35 AM >


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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 2:32:37 AM   
JanahX


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This certain male has been making comparisons of the subject matter of this thread - and comparisons in other threads - to anything and everything under the sun. The comparisons are ludacris. Highly illogical thinking - and not very sound.
More than a few people have noticed this.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

It actually sickens me that someone on this thread, a male, is so lacking in any type of empathy that he blames a teen age victim by justifying bullying by saying it is only words.
I can only agree with you, Red. It amazes Me that we are now considering that the constant bombardment of hurt of a thirteen year old is going to be compared to adults in the military. Probably similar to the parents of the kids who were the driving forces behind it, saying that what their kids were doing wasn't that bad.





< Message edited by JanahX -- 10/15/2012 2:35:49 AM >


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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 5:36:17 AM   
descrite


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quote:


Take your laboratory experiment. Now send those people home. Bring in all their friends and family, start telling them that they were saying/doing horrible things. Maybe even show them proof (it can be manufactured or real). Keep doing that for months, destroy their lives even without sending them a direct message once if you don't want to. get them fired, make their significant other break up with them, have their children removed from their home. Make their friends and family question, doubt, and possibly even alienate them.

Keep doing that for a few months, maybe longer. Make sure you include any new friends, and make sure you never let them get away from it by moving or anything.



Okay. What you have just described is exactly the outcome of the laws you're promoting. Anyone found guilty of these laws will have a criminal (probably federal) conviction on their record, forever. It will impact them on into the future of their lives, and will haunt them forever. It will drain their families' finances, trying to fight it. It will necessarily cause them to lose opportunities, and decrease the amount of money they can earn, forever. It will alienate them from their neighbors and peer group.

Because of something dumb they did in school.

Do you really think you'll stop kids from killing themselves over perceived drama? At what cost?

The new Normal will arrive, and this will all be shown to be reactionary panic. Kids will learn not to take anything posted online too seriously, and they don't really believe what they read about each other on Facebook right now, anyway. But, by the time it all smooths out (I give it about 9 years), the laws will still be in place, and our language will be constrained that much more.

And we continue to part with our freedoms, a little bit at a time, trading them for some fleeting security, chasing phantoms.











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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 7:01:35 AM   
SpaceSpank


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Hence why I said feel free to be worried and fight that they are "Good" laws. There are plenty of well meaning laws put in place for good reasons that were written poorly simply because they were either rushed in response to something, or simply written without really comprehending the scope of the language used.

And would you protect the guilty party at the expense of the victim?
Between the two one was guilty only of being a target, the other was guilty of taunting and tormenting them. Possibly physically at times, but not always.

And if the guilty party is still underage, that is taken into consideration. If they proceed to trial as an adult it means they think the details of the case are severe enough to warrant such an action.

And for those who are not minors, then they will go to trial as normal.

The problem you are having is that you lend no power to just how damaging people can be to one another without actually hitting them. This isn't about a single facebook post, or a name being called once in the hallway.

You're taking it to the illogical extreme to try and prove your point. I might as well say that since we have laws against assault, that means that patting someone on the shoulder or shaking their hand will become illegal. The new normal will be everyone refusing any physical contact with someone for fear of being arrested for assault and battery. It's where the laws are headed!

Any law, for ANY purpose can be twisted in ways it was never intended if it is poorly written.

But it's not "chasing phantoms" to account for a situation that couldn't even be dreamed of when these laws were first put in place. You just can't seem to fathom just how destructive a person can be to another without every laying a finger on them, or even seeing them face to face.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 7:03:51 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

If women can get restraining orders for verbal abuse, why do we need another law called "bullying"?



Where?

Certainly not in the town where we live. It's actually quite difficult to get a restraining order here.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 7:12:37 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite

If women can get restraining orders for verbal abuse, why do we need another law called "bullying"?



Where?

Certainly not in the town where we live. It's actually quite difficult to get a restraining order here.



I think some places do allow them...but there has to be tons of documentation and a sympathetic judge.


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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 7:56:01 AM   
culareD


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OP ~ This is a wonderful topic, and MOST of the comments have been spot on.

You and I share a VERY similar time growing up...I get it.

One of my peeps (also red-headed, freckled, PLUS autism) was extremely bullied to the point of desperation...He tried to take his life. I actually caught him in the kitchen with a knife.

This was definitely a tough time in our house, as I completely understood where he was coming from. It was then that I was thankful for my experiences, as I was able to (with the help of professionals) help him navigate through a terrible time.

Just as it could have been me that ended my life, so could it have been him ending his...

Depression is real.
Bullying happens in all ages, races, colors, creeds and economic classes.
Kids (not all, but many) can and will be mean.
Parents have to be aware, but can't always as they are not superhuman.
School administrators etc...don't always get it right either.
Bullying is very serious.


Thanks for the thread...

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 9:17:52 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite
Better still? It is nerd valhalla: in a battle of words, the weakest, most pathetic physical specimen can enter the fray in total equivalence with the football hero or big-titted cheerleader. On a battleground of words, bodies are all equal-- brains can compete.

This is something to be lauded and celebrated, not bemoaned and feared.

The presence of internet tough guys trolling like mad to overcompensate for the fact that they wouldn't dare open their mouth if somebody spills their drink in a pub is a good thing?
Yeah, right. If you believe that, I have the rights to this big clock by the gasworks in Westminster that you might be interested in buying off me...

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 10:44:45 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: descrite
Okay. What you have just described is exactly the outcome of the laws you're promoting. Anyone found guilty of these laws will have a criminal (probably federal) conviction on their record, forever. It will impact them on into the future of their lives, and will haunt them forever. It will drain their families' finances, trying to fight it. It will necessarily cause them to lose opportunities, and decrease the amount of money they can earn, forever. It will alienate them from their neighbors and peer group.

Because of something dumb they did in school.

Do you really think you'll stop kids from killing themselves over perceived drama? At what cost?

The new Normal will arrive, and this will all be shown to be reactionary panic. Kids will learn not to take anything posted online too seriously, and they don't really believe what they read about each other on Facebook right now, anyway. But, by the time it all smooths out (I give it about 9 years), the laws will still be in place, and our language will be constrained that much more.

And we continue to part with our freedoms, a little bit at a time, trading them for some fleeting security, chasing phantoms.

You are way, way, way ahead of yourself. Why wouldn't records be sealed if there was a conviction just like any other matter when tried as a juvenile?

Your complaint here is that it would follow them for the rest of their lives? Well, good heavens! We certainly can't have that! Gee, we should just tell them to forget all about the fact that they contributed to making somebody so miserable that she took her own life. Let's keep saying it was because the dead girl wasn't 'strong enough' and the others shouldn't let the incident darken their door at all. I mean, why should it bother their lives just because somebody's life is over?

I can't imagine having such a lack of compassion.



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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 11:59:05 AM   
kitkat105


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FR-

I started chatting online around 12 years ago, when I was 15 years old. Why? Because I was bullied at highschool and had very few "real life" friends. Chatting online became my escape from the miserable world I lived in away from the computer. People couldn't "see" me and therefore did not judge me. They liked me for me, something that doesn't apply to young people today.

I was bullied at school by 90% of the male population at my school. They bullied me in class, at lunch and finally started bullying me outside of school - on the school bus, in the streets of my small town. My education suffered because I would skip classes (and go to the sick bay) or I would tell my parents I couldn't go to school because I was sick. I was too scared to leave my house & too scared to be in any situation that would put me alone with any of these boys.

This all culminated in year 12 where after over 4 years of bullying I had a "mental breakdown". I was psychotic - suicidal, having auditory hallucinations and daily panic attacks. I dropped out of school 2 weeks before my final year 12 exams.

So why I have mentioned all of that is because during all of that, during all that hell, my online friends gave me unconditional attention and friendship that I enjoyed. Did I send photos I regret? Yes. Did I do or say things I regret? Yes. But, you know, sometimes when you are young, lonely and desperate for positive attention you will do dumb things like send questionable pictures to people you think you trust.

Amanda Todd IS a victim. Bullying is NOT okay in any situation. Victims of bullying can't just "get over it." My heart breaks for this poor girl who felt that her only escape was to end her life - yes, it does hit a raw nerve because there were times I prayed for death when I was in a similar situation to her.





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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 12:09:29 PM   
Alecta


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It is squidgy thinking to say no-one deserves to be bullied. It's not nice, certainly, but it is a necessary part of human development. Part of growing up is being able to deal with people not being nice, being deliberately mean and hurtful, and being able to handle our own hurt and navigate social norms to avoid hurting ourselves. Without being hurt we would never know what it was like and not knowing what it is like is often how people become callous idiots. It is the duty of overseeing guardians and adults to put their feet down and go "ENOUGH" when the kids go to far. Kids don't know what is too far. But on that note, it is therefore ridiculous to put down ever more stringent anti-bullying laws. We have criminal laws for when things go too far. We need to learn to use them first, not keep creating more and more ill-thought-out layers to disguise the fact that we don't know how much is too much.

BC's laws for dealing with similar situations are inadequate. Too much is dependent on the Judge's discretion and bias where the Court needs to recognise the modern climes and new technologies and their impacts. Crimes discussed online should be looked upon from a legislative standpoint as harshly and seriously as crimes discussed in traditional writing and conversation. The same amount of accountability should be established. (Some form of accountability should be established).

That said, I have little sympathy for this particular girl and her parents. Actions, or lack of them, have consequences. Suicide is one of the top dramatic stunts. The media circus that is happening now is exactly why. Teens, people, look at the fuss and the weeping and the regret and the sudden absolution of the suicidee and that is what sticks with them. All this really teaches to someone who's foolish or hurting enough not to fear death is "this is a great passive revenge tool" and "they'll be so sorry no-one'd remember the stupid shit I did".

Her school system is ill-equipped to handle bullying because, frankly, nobody wants to deal with shit. But it's not bullying that is the problem, its everything and everyone else. Where are the grownups in all this? The teachers did nothing until the cameras came around and mostly all they're doing is shifting responsibility "oh we tried but we don't have the right tools". They're right, they don't have the tools. But the tools they're lacking isn't new laws and enforcement, it's knowledge and training. The extent of "trying" that they put forth was limp noodley words like "oh stop picking on her" and "you can always talk to us" and "we're concerned for your child" and "oh don't say that I'm sure you're wrong". No, that is not enough, it doesn't even come close. Blaming the existence of bullying is really just a diversion from what a bad job was done to control it. So yes, things need to change. Yes, it needs to change because a kid is dead. But it isn't the other kids that was the problem, it's the adults.

It was mentioned earlier that her parents aren't with her 24/7-- How does this diminish the amount of responsibility they have towards her well-being? It has been a very long time in history since parents were with their children 24/7. It's not a matter of standing over them at all times guarding them against outside influence. It's a matter of giving them the right tools and thinking, of teaching them to help themselves and be responsible for themselves and taking that responsibility seriously; because if you give an ipod to a kid and tell them "this is your responsibility" but keep replacing them whenever the kid fails to take care of it then you're really teaching them that you think an ipod is a necessity of life and it is their right to have one, no questions asked. It is a matter of being on top of things and taking an interest, keeping tabs. In the very least, and I suppose this is radical, a parent of a teen should know who the teen is friends and enemies with this week and what the drama of the month is. There are wonderful tools for this without needing to talk to your teen. But really, you should be learning to talk to your teens. It's important. They can't raise themselves.

Anti-bullying laws won't help when what we really need are provisions that teach everyone to take consequences seriously. Suicide was a crime, where I grew up. It made us teens think twice about killing ourselves for dramatic effect (although that too was fuzzy logic since we won't be around to face the charges). Parents and teachers took educating us about and against suicide just a little more seriously because of the palpable responsibility. They took educating bullies about how much is too much a little more seriously too because of this, and laws that made them culpable if children in their charge committed crimes. It wasn't perfect, but the thinking, though callous, was sound.

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RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 8:12:36 PM   
descrite


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quote:

And would you protect the guilty party at the expense of the victim?



Absolutely. It is better to live at risk than live under a safe dictatorship...even if that is a dictatorship of the mob.

When I was a kid, the ACLU defended the American Nazi Party's right to march down the street in Skokie, Illinois (a predominantly Jewish town, at the time). Why? Because we have freedom of speech to protect the most vile messages, not to protect the messages everybody agrees with. The Founders were very clear about this; Paine was huge influence on the Revolution, and convincing people that their right were being trampled...but what he wrote was treason at the time.

Nowadays, the ACLU goes into schools and tells children to be careful what they say.

I can think of nothing more fucked up.

Oh, wait, yes, I can-- passing laws to codify that very notion...that horrifying, ugly, despicable notion. That you can hinder my words because someone might be offended by them.

You know what? Free people should be offended. Constantly. We should have to challenge our beliefs and fundamental ideas every single week, to ensure that we believe them for the right reasons...not just because they were handed down by our parents, or because they're approved by a government board, or because "everyone else thinks that."

No. Fuck, no.

I have lived through Mrs. Gore trying to keep me from listening to certain music. Fuck her. I have lived through dipshits trying to keep Mark Twain, Toni Morrison, and textbooks with evolution out of my hands. Fuck them. I haved lived through Michael Powell trying to control what I see on cable and satellite and the Internet (he already got to decide what I would watch via broadcast TV). Fuck him. I have lived through people protesting Mapplethorpe's photos. Fuck them. I have lived through federal prosecutors trying to prevent me from getting porn through the mail (hint: this was LAST YEAR, not in the 1970s). Fuck them. Fuck community standards and the Miller Test, and the very notion that any image can be obscene (the only obscene image I can think of is that of a dead child-- and I have never heard of a prosecution based on that).

Tell me that taking away my freedom can ensure kids won't kill themselves. Tell me it will save one kid. Tell me it will save a dozen. Tell me it will save a hundred.

How many lives are my freedoms worth?

Perhaps you have not calculated things in these terms. When I took an oath swearing to protect your freedoms with my life, I thought long and hard about it. Yes, I did.




(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Bullying? - 10/15/2012 8:22:06 PM   
descrite


Posts: 459
Joined: 5/14/2012
Status: offline
Sorry-- Pandora just served me up Jonathan Edwards' "Sunshine." I thought it was incredibly apropos.

(in reply to descrite)
Profile   Post #: 60
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