RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists"

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 12:35:48 PM

leonine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sorry to disagree....

Wiccan and Pagan, although (again, pidgeon-holed by the Cristian society) 'recognised' as a religion just isn't true.
It is a way of life, much like those who follow Gor - it is not a religion as such - at least that's not how is it usually viewed by those that live it.

Be so good as to speak for yourself. I am a Pagan and it is my religion and I do not consider myself any kind of atheist: my relationship with my gods is real and meaningful. I am not a Wiccan but I know many who are, and they would mostly say the same, and some would be seriously insulted by the assertion that Wicca is just a social group and not a religion.

Incidentally, UK law also disagrees: recent test cases have established that the Pagan faiths are recognised as religions under anti-discrimination law.

Mind you, as a scientist I also know I can't prove objectively that any of my religious experiences exist outside my imagination, so I sometimes call myself an agnostic. This baffles the Hel out of muggles...

< Message edited by leonine -- 11/4/2012 12:37:17 PM >

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 12:43:06 PM

leonine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Just out of interest, despite (or maybe because of) what people expect at xmas, we don't celebrate it at all.
No tree, no decorations, no hymns, no lights, no turkey etc.... nothing at all.
We actually put a big colourful sign in the window and on the front door saying "We are Pagans. We don't do Christmas. Carol singers will be shot, survivors will be buried alive". :)

How dull! Our kids always reckoned that the great thing about being Pagan was that we got to do Xmas twice, once for the Solstice and once for the public event four days later.

But maybe carol singers are a problem where you are?

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 12:43:45 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Incidentally, UK law also disagrees: recent test cases have established that the Pagan faiths are recognised as religions under anti-discrimination law.

So are the Jedi in the last couple of census (censii?)...

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 12:45:52 PM

MrBukani

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I'm an atheist and I say one for all or all for nothing!

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 12:46:52 PM

Moonhead

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The Musketeers were catholic, surely?

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:12:09 PM

MrBukani

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Yes....

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:13:30 PM

MrBukani

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Its just a story Moon ya head... hahahahah

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:26:07 PM

vincentML

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quote:

I do see atheism as a radical anti-organized religion party

Huh?

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:35:16 PM

leonine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: leonine
Incidentally, UK law also disagrees: recent test cases have established that the Pagan faiths are recognised as religions under anti-discrimination law.

So are the Jedi in the last couple of census (censii?)...

AFAIK, no Jedi have yet brought a case for religious discrimination. But then, you don't need to when you can Force-choke people who give you grief.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:46:43 PM

vincentML

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~FR
When my Ex was a child, she and her friends felt isolated at Christmas time. Jews outside in the cold with their noses pressed against the window looking in at the festivities taking place in the warmth and nostalgia of hearth and home. So, the minor celebration of Chanukka was elevated to fulfill the longing to belong. I haven't read De Botton's book so I will not comment on it directly. But if it is anything like other tracts I have read touting the need for community and ritual for atheists qua simulated religious fellowship, then I would strenuously dissent. It is all a distraction from the nihilism that is at the heart of unadultrated atheism. Just as American Jews are deluded by the manufactured longing to be a part of the great commerical celebration. The Jews are no more Christian than are the Atheists. In a way, the advocacy of imitating Christian fellowship is a weakening of Judaic and Atheist resolve. It is a momentary submission to childhood nostalgia. Having said that and believing what I said, I will admit it is a hard call to resist when you stroll by Macy's windows.

Be happy to listen to anyone who would care to talk me down from my position.

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 1:59:57 PM

leonine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

~FR
When my Ex was a child, she and her friends felt isolated at Christmas time. Jews outside in the cold with their noses pressed against the window looking in at the festivities taking place in the warmth and nostalgia of hearth and home. So, the minor celebration of Chanukka was elevated to fulfill the longing to belong. I haven't read De Botton's book so I will not comment on it directly. But if it is anything like other tracts I have read touting the need for community and ritual for atheists qua simulated religious fellowship, then I would strenuously dissent. It is all a distraction from the nihilism that is at the heart of unadultrated atheism. Just as American Jews are deluded by the manufactured longing to be a part of the great commerical celebration. The Jews are no more Christian than are the Atheists. In a way, the advocacy of imitating Christian fellowship is a weakening of Judaic and Atheist resolve. It is a momentary submission to childhood nostalgia. Having said that and believing what I said, I will admit it is a hard call to resist when you stroll by Macy's windows.

Be happy to listen to anyone who would care to talk me down from my position.

Happy Agnostica! String the Mobius paper chains and come as your favourite scientist!
http://www.nukees.com/d/20031208.html

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RE: Alain De Botton, "Religion for Atheists" - 11/4/2012 5:37:52 PM

fucktoyprincess

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Have not read this book, so can't comment on whether you should continue slogging through.

From the Amazon description they say, the author suggests "we look to religion for insights into how to, among other concerns, build a sense of community, make our relationships last, overcome feelings of envy and inadequacy, inspire travel and reconnect with the natural world". If that is the premise of the book in a nutshell then I recommend not to bother finishing it. As an atheist, I can't see the need to look to any religion to do the things mentioned above. It is possible to do all of these things without reference to religion at all.

As for people feeling that not being involved in a religious community leaves one without a really important community, well let's consider the following. I'm quite happy not to be in the community of neo-Nazis. I'm quite happy not to be in the community of right wing fanatics. I'm quite happy to not be in the community of skinheads. I'm quite happy to not be in the community of excessive reality television viewing (apologies in advance to Jersey Shore fans). There are many types of communities. It is quite a subjective matter about whether one finds a particular community meaningful or not. I'm sure a skinhead finds a great sense of community with those who think similarly to him. Doesn't mean that I would find the same sense of community there. Why do we need to make the assumption that a "religious" community is automatically superior to any other type of community? And why do we assume every community is one that all people desire to belong to?

I have plenty of community in my life. Just not religious. And I have many, many communities that I am NOT part of and have no desire to ever be part of. That's my personal choice. I don't see the need to be part of a religion any more than than be a part of the skinhead movement. I'm really happy with the communities that I have that reflect my personal values about the world. I don't begrudge others their communities. But don't tell me I, personally, need religious community.

There is no community that is absolutely necessary to an individual. Even religion.

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