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Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts"..... - 11/20/2012 5:37:07 AM

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/usa-healthcare-oklahoma-court-idUSL1E8MK12E20121120

quote:

Nov 19 (Reuters) - A U.S. federal judge on Monday denied a legal challenge to President Barack Obama's signature health reforms, ruling that the owners of a $3 billion arts and crafts chain must provide emergency contraceptives in their group health care plan.

The owners of Hobby Lobby asked to be exempted from providing the "morning after" and "week after" pills on religious grounds, arguing this would violate their Christian belief that abortion is wrong.

Judge Joe Heaton of the U.S. District for the Western District of Oklahoma denied the request for a preliminary injunction.

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the family owns are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not possess the same rights.

BINGO. Game over Crazy Religious Extremists. Keep your CHURCH in YOUR CHURCH, and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 6:02:59 AM

tj444

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"It funds a variety of Christian charities, closes its stores on Sundays and plays inspirational Christian music in its stores."

ewwww! Well, thanks for letting me know this mega corp is run by zealot nutbars.. I cant stand being unwillingly forced to listen to "inspirational Christian music" when shopping.. I have never been in one of their stores but I was going to visit one but now I never will.. just like Curves.. ewwww!

Now I would like to know who the other 40+ corps that are doing the same thing are so that i dont accidentally shop those places either..

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 10:41:00 AM

Rule

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Music in a shop usually motivates me to leave the shop; especially if it is loud music.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 11:39:20 AM

tj444

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The music (any type if its too loud or if its country haha) is one reason why I would not frequent a store and I have also been driven out cuz of it.. but with Curves, never been in one and never will since i found out that the company is against a womans right to choose & financially supports that, so I boycott them.. The Christian music in Hobby Lobby is to me pushing their religion on me and that pushiness really bugs me..

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 11:43:50 AM

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FR:
"Inspirational Christian music"?
Are we talking Stryper and Cliff Richards, or vile nonsense like Prussian Blue and Storkroft?

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 12:29:10 PM

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quote:

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the family owns are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not possess the same rights.

Amen!

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 12:52:10 PM

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I have no problem, and in fact support, exemptions to the contraceptive provisions for religious organizations (i.e. schools like Notre Dame, actual churches, and purely religious institutions). However, Hobby Lobby? Puh-lease! They are a secular business, not a church group or religious institution.

Good for this judge!

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 1:04:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstSebastian
I have no problem, and in fact support, exemptions to the contraceptive provisions for religious organizations (i.e. schools like Notre Dame, actual churches, and purely religious institutions).

I'm not sore sure I agree with that. I'd be tempted but honestly I'm more inclined to look at it like this.

If you are an organization... ANY organization... that hires people then you are an employer.
If you are an employer in the US you are expected to conform to whatever labor laws apply
I don't see your religion as being a viable reason for providing substandard health care which the rest of us will need to pick up the tab for.

Can you explain why you think that a "religious organization"... in it's role as a secular institution... should not be subject to secular rules? Render unto Ceaser and all that? Note that I'm not making anyone get birth control. I'm encouraging that decision to be a moral and spiritual one which presumably these religious organizations are well situated to address. I just don't see any need to adjust minimal standards of healthcare. I'd rather decisions about health be made on a scientific basis.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 1:14:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstSebastian
I have no problem, and in fact support, exemptions to the contraceptive provisions for religious organizations (i.e. schools like Notre Dame, actual churches, and purely religious institutions).

I'm not sore sure I agree with that. I'd be tempted but honestly I'm more inclined to look at it like this.

If you are an organization... ANY organization... that hires people then you are an employer.
If you are an employer in the US you are expected to conform to whatever labor laws apply
I don't see your religion as being a viable reason for providing substandard health care which the rest of us will need to pick up the tab for.

Can you explain why you think that a "religious organization"... in it's role as a secular institution... should not be subject to secular rules? Render unto Ceaser and all that? Note that I'm not making anyone get birth control. I'm encouraging that decision to be a moral and spiritual one which presumably these religious organizations are well situated to address. I just don't see any need to adjust minimal standards of healthcare. I'd rather decisions about health be made on a scientific basis.

I'm not talking about religious organizations which act as secular institutions (like Hobby Lobby, the Salvation Army, etc). I am talking about situations such as private religious schools (Notre Dame, John Brown, Patrick Henry), churches themselves (which do have to hire people to help run the church), and non-profit organizations which are entirely religious (Campus Crusade for Christ).

For those organizations, their religion is what defines them as an organization, it is the basis upon which they are built, and their daily activities are focused on that religion. Forcing them to pay for, via their health insurance, a medical practice which violates their central tenets is, in my opinion, going too far. I am not saying they should be exempt from the law in its entirety. Rather, there should be small exemptions made that don't forbid their employees from getting contraceptives, but makes it so Campus Crusade for Christ doesn't have to pay for it.

Also, to finish, your statement about "decisions about health being made on a scientific basis" is a non sequitur. No one is saying that religious groups get to make medical decisions. All they are saying is that, if a medical procedure violates their core beliefs, they shouldn't have to pay for it if an employee chooses to have that procedure done. It is about churches asking not to be forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

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The greatest gift a person can give is the gift of their willing submission. It is a gift more precious than gold and more fragile than glass. It is my responsibility to make sure that, every day, I am worthy of that gift.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 1:19:05 PM

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I look at this from the question: does an individual who is also an employer have the right to discriminate against others if they frame their discrimination based on their personal religious or non-religious beliefs?

If the Green family were Christian Scientists, do they have a Constitutional right to claim a religious exemption and refuse to provide any form of healthcare to their employees other than prayer from a Christian Science practitioner?

If the Greens were atheists, could they claim an exemption where if any of their employees used a hospital (for other than emergency services) affiliated with a religious organization, the employee's employer provided health insurance would become null and void and the employee's medical bills would not be covered?

I admit in part my position is colored by having grown up in the days of legalized racial segregation where white business owners refused employment to non- whites and refused to serve non-white customers based on the white business owners's "religious beliefs". In those days they believed that Christianity required racial segregation. I wonder if the Green family believes, as once many White Christain churches believed and taught, the old White Christian church's interpretation of Genesis 9: 18-27 - their "religious belief" that black people are "Sons of Ham" and therefore eternally doomed to be servants; to be "hewers of wood and drawers of water".

The trio I work with as vocalist consists of a Black pianist, a Hispanic drummer and a White transgendered drummer - and we can now work legally anywhere in the U. S., unlike in the 1950s and early 1960s where we couldn't legally perform together in most clubs, or eat in the same resturant or stay in the same hotel when we are on the road.

People like the Green family are trying to reverse almost all the advances in civil rights, using "religious beliefs" as their excuse. Will the Green family now argue they have a "religious belief" exemption to all the civill rights laws? Give them an inch & they will take a mile.

I believe the judge's ruling was Constitutional, correct and reasonable.

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(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 1:21:21 PM

searching4mysir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstSebastian

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstSebastian
I have no problem, and in fact support, exemptions to the contraceptive provisions for religious organizations (i.e. schools like Notre Dame, actual churches, and purely religious institutions).

I'm not sore sure I agree with that. I'd be tempted but honestly I'm more inclined to look at it like this.

If you are an organization... ANY organization... that hires people then you are an employer.
If you are an employer in the US you are expected to conform to whatever labor laws apply
I don't see your religion as being a viable reason for providing substandard health care which the rest of us will need to pick up the tab for.

Can you explain why you think that a "religious organization"... in it's role as a secular institution... should not be subject to secular rules? Render unto Ceaser and all that? Note that I'm not making anyone get birth control. I'm encouraging that decision to be a moral and spiritual one which presumably these religious organizations are well situated to address. I just don't see any need to adjust minimal standards of healthcare. I'd rather decisions about health be made on a scientific basis.

I'm not talking about religious organizations which act as secular institutions (like Hobby Lobby, the Salvation Army, etc). I am talking about situations such as private religious schools (Notre Dame, John Brown, Patrick Henry), churches themselves (which do have to hire people to help run the church), and non-profit organizations which are entirely religious (Campus Crusade for Christ).

For those organizations, their religion is what defines them as an organization, it is the basis upon which they are built, and their daily activities are focused on that religion. Forcing them to pay for, via their health insurance, a medical practice which violates their central tenets is, in my opinion, going too far. I am not saying they should be exempt from the law in its entirety. Rather, there should be small exemptions made that don't forbid their employees from getting contraceptives, but makes it so Campus Crusade for Christ doesn't have to pay for it.

Also, to finish, your statement about "decisions about health being made on a scientific basis" is a non sequitur. No one is saying that religious groups get to make medical decisions. All they are saying is that, if a medical procedure violates their core beliefs, they shouldn't have to pay for it if an employee chooses to have that procedure done. It is about churches asking not to be forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

Actually, it is about religious people not being forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

If the government has said that corporations are "people" then corporations also have First Amendment rights. Hobby Lobby doesn't hide the fact that it is a Christian company. They print bible verses on their bags, are closed on Sunday and play Christian music. They ARE a Christian company. Their owners state that they try to run their business with Biblical principles.

Now their only other choice is to drop everyone down to part-time status and/or hire only Christians and have them sign an employment contract that states that they will live up to Christian ideals, particularly while they appeal this decision.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 2:11:23 PM

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quote:

I am talking about situations such as private religious schools (Notre Dame, John Brown, Patrick Henry),

quote:

churches themselves (which do have to hire people to help run the church), and non-profit organizations which are entirely religious (Campus Crusade for Christ).

Churches are exempt.

The administration allowed a religious exemption. The exemption applies to church organizations themselves, but not to affiliated nonprofit corporations, like hospitals, that do not rely primarily on members of the faith as employees.[8] An amendment, the Blunt Amendment, was proposed that "would have allowed employers to refuse to include contraception in health care coverage if it violated their religious or moral beliefs,"[9] but it was voted down 51-48 by the U.S. Senate on March 1, 2012.[10]

Regulations were issued on March 16, 2012 which ensure coverage for employees of enterprises controlled by religious institutions which self insure. Regulations were also issued on March 16, 2012 which require coverage for students at institutions controlled by religious organizations which purchase insurance. It is believed by the federal government that it is not possible under current law to require contraceptive coverage for students at institutions controlled by religious organizations which self insure.[12][13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraceptive_mandate_(United_States)

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 2:49:12 PM

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Thank you tazzy. I was mistaken in my belief that they were still fighting for an exemption. My mistake. But, as for the OP, I do agree that companies like Hobby Lobby should not be exempt, as they are not a religious institution.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 3:06:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
Actually, it is about religious people not being forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

If the government has said that corporations are "people" then corporations also have First Amendment rights. Hobby Lobby doesn't hide the fact that it is a Christian company. They print bible verses on their bags, are closed on Sunday and play Christian music. They ARE a Christian company. Their owners state that they try to run their business with Biblical principles.

Now their only other choice is to drop everyone down to part-time status and/or hire only Christians and have them sign an employment contract that states that they will live up to Christian ideals, particularly while they appeal this decision.

Actually they have another utterly viable option, GET THEIR NOSES OUT OF THE PRIVATE AFFAIRS OF OTHER PEOPLE!

(in reply to searching4mysir)

RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 3:10:13 PM

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Or better yet, rather than tax exemptedly fuck with the feeble-minded and let us carry their burden, we burn the motherfuckers to the ground. So we aren't forced to do stuff we dont agree with.

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 3:57:23 PM

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I agree that Hobby Lobby has no standing to ask for an exemption. They are a business. First "Whatever" Church down the street is not. Since tolerance is one of those words that gets thrown around a lot, I think it is always admirable when tolerance extends in all directions, not just the direction I agree with. As far as Hobby Lobby's music goes, I have never even noticed it. I guess I just tune it out. Though I have to say, if music I didn't even realize was Christian can be deemed offensive, then can I complain about the loud, filthy, "motherfucker" filled stuff I heard at a clothing store the other day? lol

< Message edited by cordeliasub -- 11/20/2012 3:58:08 PM >

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RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 4:02:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/usa-healthcare-oklahoma-court-idUSL1E8MK12E20121120

quote:

Nov 19 (Reuters) - A U.S. federal judge on Monday denied a legal challenge to President Barack Obama's signature health reforms, ruling that the owners of a $3 billion arts and crafts chain must provide emergency contraceptives in their group health care plan.

The owners of Hobby Lobby asked to be exempted from providing the "morning after" and "week after" pills on religious grounds, arguing this would violate their Christian belief that abortion is wrong.

Judge Joe Heaton of the U.S. District for the Western District of Oklahoma denied the request for a preliminary injunction.

Heaton ruled that while individual members of the family that owns and operates Hobby Lobby have religious rights, the companies the family owns are secular, for-profit enterprises that do not possess the same rights.

BINGO. Game over Crazy Religious Extremists. Keep your CHURCH in YOUR CHURCH, and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.

So?

They lost their case....game over for them.

Do ya'll just wanna do a bunch of air fist pounding? Zat make you feel good?

YEAH!!!!!!! Motherfuckers....we sure showed them!!!!!

You didn't win anything ya know?

They applied for a rescission, they lost...game over....what's the big fucking deal?

Like Chic Fil-A in the public marketplace, here, these guys lost in court.

They lost.

End of discussion.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/20/2012 4:03:51 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 4:10:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
Actually, it is about religious people not being forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

If the government has said that corporations are "people" then corporations also have First Amendment rights. Hobby Lobby doesn't hide the fact that it is a Christian company. They print bible verses on their bags, are closed on Sunday and play Christian music. They ARE a Christian company. Their owners state that they try to run their business with Biblical principles.

Now their only other choice is to drop everyone down to part-time status and/or hire only Christians and have them sign an employment contract that states that they will live up to Christian ideals, particularly while they appeal this decision.

Actually they have another utterly viable option, GET THEIR NOSES OUT OF THE PRIVATE AFFAIRS OF OTHER PEOPLE!

They/he have/has every right as a citizen and a corporation (corporations are people too you know) to petition the courts.

The courts were right....as a privately held (the guy owns all the shares) but for profit company (not a church), he has no legal grounds for his own personal preferences (from a federal standpoint).

Now, if he wants to set the company up as a church, accept donations (as opposed to list prices on specific products) he can do that.

He probably won't.

Nevertheless, he isn't putting his nose (or any other appendage for that matter) into the private affairs of anyone...he's simply voicing his opinion, with a vastly larger stick than most of us possess.

No harm, no foul...no laws broken....and....no private affairs of anyone intruded upon.

(Contrary to popular, misguided and, VASTLY uneducated opinion).

(Gawwwwwd I'm glad, once again, my parents decided to educate me).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/20/2012 4:16:51 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 4:20:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
Actually, it is about religious people not being forced to financially support a practice with which they disagree.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not insensitive to that. TRUST me on this I'm not. As a liberal I have been appalled at the things you conservatives have done with my tax dollars. I understand what it means to believe that someone is extorting money from you in order to commit murder. In point of fact that was a non-trivial part of my move to Canada. Insofar as I was able I took my tax dollars and gave them to some other government that I thought would spend them more in line with my personal sense of morality.

But what I don't believe is that I have any sort of individual right to opt out of the pieces of society which are inconvenient to me. Hence why I am at least unclear on whether even churches should be given exemptions. I presume you are equally OK with a church stating that it's against their religious convictions to hire women and minorities? At what point does "I'm a church" stop being the only consideration in your mind?

The reason we establish minimums in our society is because we believe BadThings(TM) happen when we go below them. Why are these BadThings(TM) any less pressing when they happen in a church? It's still going to be the rest of society that deals with the issue.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to searching4mysir)

RE: Judge says, "Fuck you crazy religious nuts&quo... - 11/20/2012 4:28:41 PM

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The distinction I make is this: does doing/being forced to participate in something directly violate the church's tenets of faith? For example, I could really care less about gay marriage, but their are some faiths/denominations that consider marriage to be one man and one woman and consider homosexuality a sin. I have a problem with the state stepping in and requiring a minister of that church to perform a gay wedding. I would have a problem with the state, for example, requiring a synagogue to serve ham and bacon in their food kitchen (dumb example but you get my point). Insurance....well, that is stickier to me. Once an employer provides me with insurance...how I use said insurance should be private and none of their business. For example, if I work as a child care worker at a very conservative church where birth control is frowned upon, I don;t think they have the right to know whether or not I get the pill from my gynecologist.

It's a confusing and complex issue.

That being said......I still think humans could at least treat other humans with basic respect. I mean, if a corporation petitioned to remove God from everything and lost, I wouldn't be saying "Yeah! Screw You God-haters! Chew on THAT!" I just don't get the whole hatred thing. If that group of Muslims had not been allowed to build a Mosque near Ground Zero, I wouldn't have been cheering, 'Yay! Put those people in their place!"

Maybe I'm just a softie.

(in reply to JeffBC)

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