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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 1:57:01 PM

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Yachtie,

No offence, seriously - but I do think it's important to do some at least very basic groundwork before you post on a matter of political ideology. It's embarrassing seeing Germany suggested as a 'socialist utopian experiment'.

For instance, you could benefit, I think, from Googling e.g. the phrases 'mixed economy' and 'social democracy'.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 2:10:33 PM

fucktoyprincess

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Probably not the best example if you are trying to lure us into saying that social democratic principles don't work.....

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 2:11:56 PM

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No, but a slightly better example than Norway, I suppose.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 2:46:05 PM

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Norway's still run by Stalin, isn't it? I know they put children down their salt mines all the time. And you're only allowed to get off with ugly women who smell.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 3:26:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

I await the defense of the bedrock of socialism's utopian experiment with great anticipation.

I await the day you finally get a clue as to what Socialism is. We cant have it all though bruv, so I shall just have to wait a bit longer.

You are way off the mark (Pun intentional) in suggesting merkel is a socialist, or even that the EU is.

I am sick of trying to explain all this to you and your ilk so please try and get a grip or at least stop trolling.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 4:03:08 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

I await the defense of the bedrock of socialism's utopian experiment with great anticipation.

You are aware that poverty in Germany isn't the same as poverty in the USA, right?

Or, to be clearer, there's a difference between relative poverty (what the report references) and absolute poverty. Existenzminimum is about €1030/mo net income, which works out to slightly more than $32000/yr per household after taxes, compared to the median household income of $45000/yr in the USA before taxes. When you factor in that the median household in the USA will also have to pay for insurance, copays and the like, these numbers start to amount to a very simple, unpleasant conclusion about the USA and how it stacks up to one of the least socialist countries in Europe:

The median household in the USA is beneath the German poverty line.

Not that I'm defending the German model or anything.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 5:12:24 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

I await the defense of the bedrock of socialism's utopian experiment with great anticipation.

You are aware that poverty in Germany isn't the same as poverty in the USA, right?

Or, to be clearer, there's a difference between relative poverty (what the report references) and absolute poverty. Existenzminimum is about €1030/mo net income, which works out to slightly more than $32000/yr per household after taxes, compared to the median household income of $45000/yr in the USA before taxes. When you factor in that the median household in the USA will also have to pay for insurance, copays and the like, these numbers start to amount to a very simple, unpleasant conclusion about the USA and how it stacks up to one of the least socialist countries in Europe:

The median household in the USA is beneath the German poverty line.

Not that I'm defending the German model or anything.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Oh, ouch.....

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 5:53:49 PM

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Yeah, ouch.

I make about $22,000 a year gross. And I thought I was doing fine because my house is paid off.

That is until I realized I can't afford a painting by a local artist who really only has his work on sale one time a year--right before the holidays. This year, the sale is Dec. 14th and because of some unexpected expenses, I can't afford a painting :(. I can barely afford Christmas.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 6:04:40 PM

Level

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Sweden is a bit more socialist (or, social-ish) than Germany, and they're doing pretty well, I think?

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 6:17:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
the example you have included appears to be of a country that has never been socialist.

Well, there was that experiment with National Socialism that ended rather badly, as I recall.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 8:51:57 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

I make about $22,000 a year gross. And I thought I was doing fine because my house is paid off.

Ouch. That's well into poverty by German standards, and borders on poverty by Norwegian standards. If you made that here (i.e. well below minimum wage), you would pay zero income tax, be eligible for subsidized housing, get completely free health care, and the state would pick up the tab if you need a lawyer for something, to mention a few things. ETA: You would also be eligible to have glasses covered, along with heating, telephony, subsidized transportation, and various other things. The kids' laptop (for school) would probably also be covered, even if the school in question offers a non-digital programme. If you were living in my area, your kids might also qualify for social support, which is a thing that aims to provide all children with equal access to spare time activities like cinema tickets, outings and the like.

quote:

I can barely afford Christmas.

Yeah, around here we have bonus payments around Christmas in the welfare system, to make it easier for families that are on a too tight budget to cover presents and such. For a household with two kids, I suppose it works out to about $600 or so.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 11/29/2012 8:56:56 PM >

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 9:02:27 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Sweden is a bit more socialist (or, social-ish) than Germany, and they're doing pretty well, I think?

Both Sweden, Norway and Denmark are doing pretty well.

The shared Nordic dream is, essentially, for each individual to have a life that is fuller and richer, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement, regardless of social class or circumstances of birth; to bring to fruition the idea that all men are created equal, with certain inalienable rights, including the right to pursuit of life, liberty and happiness, again regardless of background.

Oh, wait, that's the American dream.

Well, guess it had to come true somewhere, right?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 9:53:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
the example you have included appears to be of a country that has never been socialist.

Well, there was that experiment with National Socialism that ended rather badly, as I recall.

If THIS subterranean level of even the most essential and basic comprehension does not exemplify and unequivocally elucidate to the entire world just what the problem is in the US, then I don't know what else would.

Aside the OP, that is.

All I can say is; please don't blame all of us, it's not as though we haven't been trying to remedy the situation.

Sad fact is, the media make their living off of people like this, and a good living it is. It is in their economic interest to do everything possible to promote unthinking response, as that is what sells what their sponsors advertise.

An audience that thinks too much, or actually thinks anything through at all, is not the demographic being sought.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 10:05:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
the example you have included appears to be of a country that has never been socialist.

Well, there was that experiment with National Socialism that ended rather badly, as I recall.

National Socialism is not socialism, it was a sythesis of capitalism and socialism and it was more akin to national corporate capitalism. Why do you think German capitalist and corporations were the Nazis biggest supporters and the first people the Nazis incarcerated and exterminated were communists and socialists? Duh!

The ignorance of some people has no bounds.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 10:12:28 PM

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Meatceaver, Edwynn, read my signature line, and contemplate how it might relate to the last couple replies.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 10:19:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Meatceaver, Edwynn, read my signature line, and contemplate how it might relate to the last couple replies.

The reason I took you seriously is that I have actually read that same statement made hundreds of times in British newspaper threads, even the liberal Guardian.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 10:27:04 PM

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Good for you, but the reason that I took it seriously is because he has spouted so much drivel in support and display of such ignorance as to what 'socialism' is, that the post fell right in line with that.

Silly me.

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RE: The German model - 11/29/2012 10:53:19 PM

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Let me enlighten you a little, Edwynn. When the draft board asked my stepfather was he now, or had he ever been, a member of the Communist Party, his 100% truthful answer, confirmed by the FBI, was that he was a recruiter for the Socialist Worker's Party.

Yeah. I know a little about leftist ideologies. I'm even happy to discuss what I think are the inherent flaws in them, with reasonable, non-jackasses.

Good night.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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RE: The German model - 11/30/2012 2:34:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Well, there was that experiment with National Socialism that ended rather badly, as I recall.

Someone else without a clue, time and time again.

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RE: The German model - 11/30/2012 6:24:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
the example you have included appears to be of a country that has never been socialist.

Well, there was that experiment with National Socialism that ended rather badly, as I recall.

Yes, since they scrapped it at the outset in the birth of the Party. It was sort of like saying party of the 'conservatives' when they really meant party of the 'insane and inept'

And you demonstrably know little of leftist ideologies, since you are always trying to bind alinsky to democrats (which was wholly abhorrent to him) . But I understand your running gag, since mine is the Minneapolis Airport Bathroom at the Republican National Convention, having a great deal of basis in fact, something that not only enhances but deconfuses the gag from peepings and mutterings.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 11/30/2012 6:30:04 AM >

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