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Hiroshima - 11/7/2004 5:09:45 AM   
iwillserveu


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I listened to studio 360 off and on this morning and I got to thinking about Hiroshima. Me and Lady Beckett had an argument about nuclear weapons where she was, of course, wrong.:)

Only an uniformed moron would apologize for Hiroshima. Only a self-centered, self- important, reality denying, jerk doesn’t apologize for Nagasaki. (The Japanese were already relaying peace terms that would be very similar to the final surrender. Unfortunately they were sending them through Stalin who was looking at a better deal if he enfettered the war late.)

Oh, according to the History channel Nagasaki was the only bomb not ordered dropped by the President. The original order called for them to be used every two weeks or depending on weather, as they become available. An Army Air Corps Captain saw they were moving into the monsoon season and the bomb was there...

As I told Lady Beckett, although she was too pissed to listen, if you want American war crimes look at the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden with conventional bombs. (I think phosphorous was banned in explosives on human targets.)


_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.
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RE: Hiroshima - 11/7/2004 11:48:17 PM   
MistressDREAD


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wonders why anyone would be argueing
about things of the past that cannot be
changed and getting heated over it as well.
Whats the big deal? bombs blow and people
and earth are killed? nothing new, nothing missed.

takes the subbie and Mistress by the hand and takes em both out for Icecream.....now ya wanna argue about sumthing? argue about how the icecream makers are thinking about changeing the color of pictashio icecream from green to a light brown, just what the hell were they thinkin?.....


oh yea and iwill
only a uniformed moron would
call their Mistress wrong. tsk tsk tsk.

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Hiroshima - 11/7/2004 11:54:13 PM   
MistressDREAD


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and hell iwill if you wanna talk about the US and goverment crimes why leave the country to do so. lets talk about the over two million minorities that were used for testing with out their permission or knowing all the way up till the early 1970s for certain tests and up to the present day now minority woman are still sterilized with out their permissions or knowing till they are ready to have a family and find they cannot. Now theres a start and a argument. And the beat goes On... * da da daaaaaa da da da da daaaaaaa * And the beat goes on.........

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Hiroshima - 11/8/2004 8:28:32 AM   
perverseangelic


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From: Davis, Ca
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Or the thousands of non-minorty women and children who were given radioactive isotopes without their consent as part of government studies into radioactivity. We're equal opportunity, here, remember.


Anyway, I think it -is- important to "argue
about things of the past that cannot be
changed and getting heated over it as well. "

I firmly believe that the first step to moving beyond something is to think about and understand its roots. That in order for our culture to move forward, we need to understand our past, from as many sides as possible.

No, we can't change it, but we can learn better how to keep it from happening again.

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~in the begining it is always dark~

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RE: Hiroshima - 11/8/2004 5:58:39 PM   
MistressDREAD


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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ohhh I agree it is issues
to be discussed but
getting heated over it
or fighting with dead?
Id be the first to fight
with the living but um
the dead well that is
not progressive but
aggressive and
aggression never
finds answers but will
find a fight. JMO
Yanno We are a bunch
of folks that know way
to much for Our Own
good..............LOL

quote:

sits watching the fists fly while eatin My lite brown pistashio icecream.....ugggggg

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RE: Hiroshima - 1/29/2005 7:14:25 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

wonders why anyone would be argueing
about things of the past that cannot be
changed and getting heated over it as well.
Whats the big deal? bombs blow and people
and earth are killed? nothing new, nothing missed.

takes the subbie and Mistress by the hand and takes em both out for Icecream.....now ya wanna argue about sumthing? argue about how the icecream makers are thinking about changeing the color of pictashio icecream from green to a light brown, just what the hell were they thinkin?.....


oh yea and iwill
only a uniformed moron would
call their Mistress wrong. tsk tsk tsk.



Are you serious? (No emoticon, I'm seriously not sure.) If the you say the sun rises in the west you want slaves that just say, "Yes Mistress."?

If you think for a second who was in power had anything to do with who was right I'd like you to meet some in power guards at Auschwitz.



_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: Hiroshima - 1/29/2005 9:22:52 AM   
Atavist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu
Only an uniformed moron would apologize for Hiroshima.


An interesting way to start a discussion.

I guess that makes me an uniformed moron. If you're saying that dropping a nuclear weapon on a civilian population center at the tail end of a war that Japan was destined to lose isn't at least morally debatable (killing @66,000 people), I'd say your chastity belt is fastened a wee bit tight and your suffering from oxygen deprivation.

< Message edited by Atavist -- 1/29/2005 9:23:36 AM >

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RE: Hiroshima - 1/29/2005 2:57:41 PM   
Pavel


Posts: 308
Joined: 1/10/2005
From: Washington
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Ok, I'm going to get myself torn a new one here, but all right.

We weren't sure Japan was going to surrender. In hindsight, the writeing was on the wall, but until that point, the forces of Japan has pretty much fought to the death (example, at Tarawa of a garrison of 4500 only 17 surrendered. Also over 1,038 Marines died takeing the island). We had intelligence showing that the Japanese were going to arm their population with the intention of useing them as sucide troops. Also, Allied Intel showed that the Japanese still had a fairly large army in China and the home islands (this was a bit of a mistake, many of these forces had been used to replace or reinforce other units in the south pacific).
So as far as the US Goverment and Military knew, we were going to have to invade the enemy on their home turf, that they were going to fight to the death, and we'd be faceing a large highly trained bit of Japanese army sorts. After some number crunching the casualty estimates for both sides started creeping up into the hundreds of thousands. Given this situation, there were three main plans put forth. 1. Continue the course with bombing and naval blockades (already killing thousands of civilians and starving the country), 2. mount an invasion (costing likely hundreds of thousands of american lives, and likely killing upwards of a million japanese people), or 3. launch and atomic attack.

Again, in hindsight it's easy to talk about how terrible the atomic bomb was. But the truth was it was really a bit of a mystery outside of the scienctific community. Noone really understood the radiological aspects of an atomic blast, pretty much all we knew is it worked, and it was devistateing. Thus that led to the concept of the A-bomb as just once big regular bomb. From the purely econmical aspect it was alot better, one plane carrying one bomb could do the job of 100 planes carrying thousands of bombs. That and it was hoped by giveing the impression that we could destroy the Japanese at will, without them haveing the chance to fight back could lead to the surrender we were looking for (unconditional, we weren't looking for Versilles all over again).

So the choice was made, it'd hopefully end the war faster, and cost less American lives. When the first bomb hit, the Japanese were quick to either claim it was some kind of trick and not a new bomb (lots of planes dropping from really high up, a regular bomb causeing extra havoc through conveluted means, etc). By and large the consensus was that it was a one time deal, and that continueing the fight was the best choice. Then the US dropped a second bomb, making it clear that no, it was a new bomb, and yes, the US can just stand off and nuke japan until there's noone left to fight. Even with this realization a number of Japanese troops still munitanied in an attempt to stop the surrender.

The first bomb was dropped as an alternative to a bloody invasion or a lasting slow starvation. The second bomb was dropped because we faced an enemy still convinced it could win out against the odds and over the bodies of it's own citizens. The peace terms the Japanese were looking for still put them in control of what they still held onto, in addition to keeping thier present goverment intact. We had done that with Germany after the first world war, and that had just led to the illusion that Germany hadn't REALLY lost the war. The US hoped to avoid illusion so that some post war Japanese version of Hitler couldn't use it to bring about the Japanese empire part two.

Firstly, the use of phosporus on human targets is banned. The same way that .50 cal rounds are banned against human targets. The thing is incindary bombs are never used on people just standing around in a nice little cluster. They're used on factories, buildings, etc. The peple just happen to be standing too close, and thusly there's no violation of anything at all. I would hazard to call Dresden excessive, but to forget the RAF and Air Marshal Harris's role would be just idiotic. Tokyo was done for the same reason that the A-bombs were dropped, it was hoped by a huge show of force that a surrender might be encouraged.

Of course you just have to look to the pre-war thinking of Douhet and Mitchell to find the basis for the mass bombing principals, but that's another topic all togther.

And I'm just going to stop now. I'm sure I've typed enough of my gibberish for anyone's taste.


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