Punishment question

Punishment question (Full Version)

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xoxogirl -> Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:20:40 AM)
Is there a "loving" way to harshly punish your submissive? And is leaving any lasting marks on a person okay (ie, tattoos, scars, branding, etc.) Thanks for responding. I'd appreciate hearing from submissive women.

Pyramus -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:24:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxogirl Is there a "loving" way to harshly punish your submissive? And is leaving any lasting marks on a person okay (ie, tattoos, scars, branding, etc.) Everything depends on what the particular Dom and sub thinks of "loving" "harsh" and lasting marks.

Baroana -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:25:13 AM)
Okay? Here in America, many of us believe that what a woman does with her own body is her business. Therefore, you're the only one who can decide if marks are okay. Just keep in mind that permanent is permanent.

SinFix -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:25:37 AM)
Yes there is, a lot will tell you that punishment should never come from anger; so given that one could surmise that punishment can be done in a "loving" way. If the person consented to those marks then yes, they are okay... Consent is what seperates a dynamic from loving consensual D/s from abuse...

TheLilSquaw -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:27:52 AM)
Yes. Let them know before hand what your expectations are. Be clear about what punishments will be. Be consistent. To me that is showing a sub that you are disciplining them because you not only care about them but your relationship. To ME, the worst part about punishment and discipline was knowing I did whatever it was that broke the rules. I want it to be same with those that submit to me. My disappointment should be the worst part of the punishment. As far as marks, depends on the people involved. I'm personally not a fan of perm marks or damage.

myotherself -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:28:39 AM)
Everything is OK if you both agree to it. Master hasn't ordered me to have a tattoo or be branded, but we're at a stage in our relationship where I may agree to it, within reason. Permanent marks are something we both discussed right at the start of our relationship and, even though I'm his slave, he would still talk to me about it before making any decisions. And punishment - Master can be harsh. I'm rarely punished because I rarely mess up so badly to deserve it (maybe 2 or 3 times in our two and half years together). Punishments are usually canings, and pretty brutal by the standards of some. I'm a masochist and we often do pain play with canes, but punishments are a whole other ball game. They are harsh, relentless and a great reminder that I need to make sure I do the things I promised to do, to the best of my ability. ETA: Our punishments are loving because he's doing it as part of a dynamic WE BOTH agreed on at the beginning of our relationship. He wouldn't do it if he didn't care for me deeply, and afterwards when I apologise, he will hold me and sooth me and dry my tears. I feel so close to him at that point...and so glad that he's my 'harsh' Master

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxogirl Is there a "loving" way to harshly punish your submissive? And is leaving any lasting marks on a person okay (ie, tattoos, scars, branding, etc.) Thanks for responding. I'd appreciate hearing from submissive women. The first question assumes there's a punishment dynamic in place. Plenty of people don't have that, don't need it, and don't want it. However, if the partners do have it, then what they define as "loving" and "harsh" are the only definitions that matter. In which case, I'm sure it's possible to have both but the how of it will be unique to each situation. "Funishment" - pretending to punish a sub in the context of a scene - is something else entirely. In that case, the D-type can be as hard on the s-type as they've both consented to and it's all good. They don't stop caring for each other just because the D-type is turning the s-type's bum black, blue, and purple. The second question is an individual thing. Are permanent marks okay? Sure they are, as long as both parties consent to it. Everyone is different so it depends on the people involved.

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 11:47:01 AM)
Like the bunny, punishments are loving in our relationship. Punishment for us is what happens to re-set the balance of things. Something happened, we fix it, and then we have the punishment which draws a symbolic line underneath it. It makes us both focus on the dynamic and on each other. Although the punishment itself might be harsh, it's essentially a good thing because it's our way of re-committing to our dynamic. If we didn't love each other, we wouldn't do it, because it wouldn't matter. And contrary to popular belief, punishment is not a replacement for adult problem solving or communication, rather it complements it. It wouldn't be loving if he were lashing out in anger or losing control. It wouldn't be loving if he was inconsistent and I never knew what was a punishable offense, because that would set me up for failure and make me live in fear. It wouldn't be loving if he were to do something which could cause me actual harm (I'm talking put me in the hospital, not bruises). Also, I'm a worrier and I tend to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders. If I think I've messed up, I will go over and over it in my mind, and feel awful, and fret and be restless and worry about how I've hurt our relationship. When he punishes me, he takes that away from me. It's like he takes responsibility for punishing me, he re-sets the balance and it's not on me to punish myself. He is judge and jury, he assigns the penalty, and I am absolved of my wrong-doing. It is cathartic and it is a relief. So in my case, punishment can be an extremely loving thing because he saves me from that torment. As I have said before - I am aware that my use of punishment as an emotional reset button may not be the most psychologically healthy way of dealing with my own anxieties. But, it works, and it's healthier for me and our relationship than having no coping mechanism. I have someone who loves and supports me who can do this for me, and for that reason I will defend my punishment dynamic to the end. Permanent marks - they are right as long as it suits both people in the relationship. And done by someone who knows what they are doing.

DarkSteven -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 12:20:12 PM)
Can I interpret you post to means that, when you get punished, you feel he's too harsh and you feel unloved when it's being done? If so, I recommend he do it as follows: 1. Explain to you what you had done. 2. Punish you. 3. Afterward, hug you, forgive you, and say it's over and done with.

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 12:30:53 PM)
I'm not a submissive woman, but I'll throw some thoughts in there anyway. Athena's comments were wonderful regarding the aspects of punishment. I couldn't have done better, Myself. Instead, this is more about the permanent marks part. To Me, permanent marks are from activities that are bonding experiences. Don't consider that popular opinion. I'm sure I'm in the minority about it. The types that I prefer are the ones that I do the action, Myself. This is why clip has been scared and branded, rather than him having a tattoo. Sure, I could design the tattoo, but somebody else would be doing the ink. I like the hands on aspects and being involved in the act of what is going to be on his body. My boy, with My mark, from My hand. The next mark that I plan on doing on him will be brand via the violet wand. Of course, we get to have all kinds of fun working him up to being able to handle the amount of electricity that will be required. Last time I checked, he wasn't exactly complaining about that.

JeffBC -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 12:42:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xoxogirl Is there a "loving" way to harshly punish your submissive? Color us into the "don't have it, don't' want it, don't need it" crowd insofar as punishment goes. And is leaving any lasting marks on a person okay (ie, tattoos, scars, branding, etc.) My impression about this and the punishment question is that you are making a specific mistake. You are trying to lift such things out of the context of the relationship and discuss them in general. I just don't think you can do that. Carol doesn't want a tattoo, scarification, or being branded... especially not the last since she's a pain sissy and not a masochist. But she is mine. That is what works for us. I might have her tattoo'd. I don't like the aesthetics of scars or brands. She'll be branded, scarred, tatttoo'd, pierced, and whatever else as I desire. Why? Well, for starters you need to remember we've been married for 16 years now (17? -- something like that anyway). We've been together for 18 or 19. Putting "property of Jeff" on her isn't exactly the same thing as doing that with someone I met last night at the BDSM play party. Why, in general, would she happily agree to give over ALL rights? It's because I love her so well and so thoroughly that shit like that just seems ... well... trivial. Hell, an awful lot of totally vanilla women would gladly sign on the dotted line for the deal she gets. See what I mean about "context matters"? The same things I talk about with Carol casually would be horribly abusive in a different relationship. So when you ask a generic question like this and people respond with a factual answer (sans context) you're really not learning anything.

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 12:49:35 PM)
Thank you LadyPact! I take that as a big compliment coming from someone with your experience. I was attempting to preempt the usual comments about punishment dynamics being childish, which make me feel twitchy. I do really see your point with the need to make the marks with your own hands. I only made the comment about being done by someone who knows what they are doing because I've seen one or two people who think it's a good idea to do it as soon as the collar is on and the vast majority of people don't have the skills to do it safely. If it were us, he'd be sending me to a professional or spending a long time learning the skills in the proper environment before he tried it. While I don't think we should keep the conversations to BDSM 101 to protect the newbies, my mothering instinct sometimes feels the need to point to people like you and Kana and say 'these people know what they are doing! Don't try this at home kids!'

JeffBC -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 12:58:29 PM)
Since you wanted the sub input, I asked Carol about it (she's not an internet hound and seldom posts). I asked her to give me her unadulterated feelings/reactions to these things without me "interfering" and giving her a new feeling/desire. Tattoo. I asked her about several different placements and messages. The response came back, "I'm yours" each time. She did laugh, however, and say if I wanted to put a tattoo of a heart with the word "Mom" on it on her left bicep we'd have to have a talk -- but even that was a joke. Brand: She gave me a grimace and wry mouth and said... "Ok". As I suspected, the pain aspect is an issue for her. Scarification: Again, grimace on the pain part. Her biggest concern as is always true with her is whether this is visible or not. Carol doesn't like to stand out in a crowd so some huge tattoo on her face would definitely rattle her. The more it fit into something society might not see or care about the more it comes down to some level of "ouch" and "I'm his". For us, the phrase "I'm his" is the period on the end of every sentence. She might like something or dislike it but all such considerations end in "She has no choice." Carol also points out that we have not done these things. So she is giving her best assessment of her reaction. But there's no way to know until the rubber meets the road. I agree with that.

littlewonder -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:04:59 PM)
It depends. Are you talking about punishment or funishment? Master and I have a punishment dynamic in that if i do something wrong I'm punished. Punishment is harsh because that's what punishment is. How else does a person learn? But he always always loves me. That never stops just because I'm being disciplined. If you're talking about funishment then that's all up to you both depending on the type of relationship you have. If it's a kinky bdsm one, a bedroom one or top/bottom one, then it's all up to whatever you guys agree upon. If it's an M/s relationship, it's up to him and whatever you agreed to before you both got together. Now as for permanent marks. Again, it depends on the relationship. See above. Master and I have an M/s relationship. If he decides to leave permanent marks then that's his decision. It's what we agreed on before we decided to be in a relationship. Permanent marks are not a big deal to me. I have many tattoos before I met Master. I have scarring all over from both accidents, diseases and partners. I have piercings, some before I met him. Some after I met him. Some for him, some not for him. So having more just is not that big a concern to me. All of this really depends on what you both agree to. It sounds like you have not even talked about any of this at all with your partner and it's about time you both sat down and had a face to face, heart to heart talk about exactly what you both want. Do couples no longer talk to each other?

RedMagic1 -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:05:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Baroana Here in America, many of us believe that what a woman does with her own body is her business. I do think it's reasonable to ask what a therapeutic line might be between sensation play and domestic violence, or between body modification and self-harm. My own answer is this: judge the value of the action by the consequences of the action. Is the marked-up person happier the next day, more able to walk with a spring in her (his) step, has higher morale at work, is a better parent to the children? Or is the marked-up person more depressed, less likely to take showers, snapping at the kids, blowing things off at the job? Criteria like that are what I use to determine whether a relationship is healthy or dysfunctional. xoxogirl, this is why so many people are saying you have to look at a specific relationship, instead of judging an act out of context. Unless it's something like decapitation (and I'm sure some internet philosopher can come up with a thought experiment where decapitation is done lovingly), the healthiness or abusiveness of an act can only be judged by the emotional well-being of the participants.

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:16:09 PM)
You are very welcome, Athena. You write quite a few excellent posts. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who notices. [:)] The learn about what you're doing part definitely gets My vote. I consider Myself lucky that I've had some fabulous teachers. No, I don't think just picking up something with a sharp edge and hacking away is a good idea. [8D] There are lots of resources out there. Of course, there's something to be said about the dynamic itself, too. I wouldn't really want to put a permanent mark on somebody that hasn't been with Me that long or where the relationship wasn't a good one. Something I think people on the receiving end should think about as well.

JeffBC -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:21:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 My own answer is this: judge the value of the action by the consequences of the action. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. For once someone actually considers the question, "Was it actually abusive?" Flags & warning signs and whatnot are all well and good. Reality is reality.

NuevaVida -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:29:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact To Me, permanent marks are from activities that are bonding experiences. Don't consider that popular opinion. I'm sure I'm in the minority about it. The types that I prefer are the ones that I do the action, Myself. This is why clip has been scared and branded, rather than him having a tattoo. Sure, I could design the tattoo, but somebody else would be doing the ink. I like the hands on aspects and being involved in the act of what is going to be on his body. My boy, with My mark, from My hand. I'm in the minority with you, LadyPact. The idea of a permanent mark from a punishment makes me cringe. As his slave, he can do that if he wants, but every time I see that mark for the rest of my life I'm going to be reminded of something negative, rather than positive. Thankfully, he wouldn't want that for me. He does punish me lovingly (I'm talking punishment, not funishment, here), but the harshest have not included physical pain. He is creative in making sure the punishment is related to whatever earned it. For example, I have a food disorder, and I binged and then mentally beat myself up for it. He had me kneel before the toilet, lid up, with a note posted inside the lid: "Binge eating is as healthy for me as eating out of this toilet." I was to stare and contemplate that message for 15 minutes. It had a profound affect on me - more so than any beating would have. It was a loving act on his part, and I was in tears when he pulled me away from the toilet. Some wouldn't call that harsh, but it was strong, and effective. Not everything requires a beating. Over here, beatings are (mostly) for fun. [:)]

xoxogirl -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:41:49 PM)
Thank you for those who have commented. I agree with some who say a permanent mark is an individual thing. However, I think one should think and discuss it with there partner before they get it. I got a tattoo that said "slave" above my cunt and regret it because I'm no longer with that person and it's hard to explain that tattoo to others that I try to be with. I told him I wanted a tattoo because it was less painful than a branding. About punishment, my daddy dom and I agree that the law is the up most punishment. Other than that, why should he hit me out of anger or because I'm doing something wrong? I see it as, unless its a "punishment" or something for sexual pleasure (not always mine, mostly his) it shouldn't be done. If no one is getting any sexual pleasure why is it being done?

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Punishment question (12/31/2012 1:44:42 PM)
Well several of us have explained reasons why it works for us that go far beyond sexual pleasure - perhaps you would care to look at those and see if you want to respond to a specific point? If it doesn't work for the two of you, don't do it. But this seems to be heading back down the route of telling people they are being mistreated. I hope I have made it pretty clear why it makes my life better, not worse.

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