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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 11:00:00 AM   
calamitysandra


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An operation, even if done professional and with the right combination of meds and after care is always painful and uncomfortable. So doing it for no other than cosmetic reasons to an animal,who is not able to consent, is cruelty.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 3:51:35 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ear cropping can be done correctly by a vet that is not painful, mutilating, etc

If most of your ears had been cut off when you were a child and the remaining tissue forced tnto an unnatural shpe by way of a cardboard form would you consider that mutilation?

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 4:12:04 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
An operation, even if done professional and with the right combination of meds and after care is always painful and uncomfortable. So doing it for no other than cosmetic reasons to an animal,who is not able to consent, is cruelty.

Jesus Christ I hope you are joking . . . you don't really believe that do you? I mean, if you have compassion and empathy for their ears and lack of choices, how do you feel about their enslavement without choice? Fuck the ears, that won't cramp their lifestyle or happiness nearly as much as being merchandize on display so that some asshole without any breed education can impulse buy it because they think the puppy is "pretty". They ought to give an IQ test to potential dog owners imo.

However, many of those that are educated about the breed and show the dogs do crop ears. What does that say about a cropping? Where does that fit in your biased logic? Should we feel sorry for dogs that are uncropped because of a high likelihood they are owned by an uneducated asshole that bought the dog on impulse instead of love for the breed? What does your biased empathy tell you to feel for those dogs?

Anyway, I hope the "not able to consent" logic doesn't lead you to randomly wander around cutting leashes and breaking fences to set all the unwilling pit bull doggy slaves free from their cruel ear cropping Masters that have been keeping them captive without consent. Foolish logic like that just won't fly here. There are some real dog lovers in this thread and there is a huge difference between a dog lover and some pet owner that knows nothing about the majesty of the breed or its history.

My dog is a cute floppy and uncropped. However, I feel no sadness or empathy for the majesty of the show animals and breeding stocks that are cropped. I don't look at those beautiful animals and think to myself, "now there is a case of animal cruelty". Instead I see dogs that are extremely well groomed, well cared for that lead a very healthy, happy and productive doggy life. If you see cruelty instead of the owner's love and care in these dogs, you do not have enough awareness to own an animal imo.





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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 4:14:42 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ear cropping can be done correctly by a vet that is not painful, mutilating, etc

If most of your ears had been cut off when you were a child and the remaining tissue forced tnto an unnatural shpe by way of a cardboard form would you consider that mutilation?



Soooooo . . . how do you feel about circumcision?

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 4:49:23 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ear cropping can be done correctly by a vet that is not painful, mutilating, etc

If most of your ears had been cut off when you were a child and the remaining tissue forced tnto an unnatural shpe by way of a cardboard form would you consider that mutilation?



Soooooo . . . how do you feel about circumcision?

It's mutilation and should not be done to infants.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 4:54:46 PM   
lmpishlilhellcat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

i agree imp ( can i call you that? )

i'm a firm believer that with all dogs the owners need to know them and their body language. for example... when my pit is feeling uncomfortable or anxious she takes on a certain head position. keeping her past experiences in mind i tend to try to take notice of this so she doesn't snap out of fear. she's a cuddler and a lover and i don't believe she would outright attack anyone without provocation. just like any animal ( including people for the most part ) but i like to keep an eye out just in case



Yes you may!

I agree. When my aussie is about to get pissy with another dog his tail goes straight up and gets a little poofy. I know that should we have a baby that starts crawling or walking, he's gonna freak out. The herding instinct in him just can't handle it.

With that being said, it's a matter of personal opinion (MINE) that no matter how well you think you know your dog, you shouldn't leave your dog unattended with a young child. It's a foolish decision. Kids are rowdy, they crawl, they climb, they hang etc... While most dogs can handle it, you don't know what might just irritate the dog and realistically it's not necessarily the dogs fault either. I can't say I'd be entirely thrilled with someone crawling all over me or yanking my hair.

On an entirely different note. For those that are pit lovers Guilty til Proven Innocent is an excellent organization trying to ban breed specific legislation. They also have a campaign called I am a pitbull owner. It's pretty cute.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 4:56:05 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ear cropping can be done correctly by a vet that is not painful, mutilating, etc

If most of your ears had been cut off when you were a child and the remaining tissue forced tnto an unnatural shpe by way of a cardboard form would you consider that mutilation?



Soooooo . . . how do you feel about circumcision?

It's mutilation and should not be done to infants.

Should there be race or religious specific legislation to prevent this circumcision cruelty?
I am just trying to get a human equivalent, a perspective on what you all are talking about when it comes to animals.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 5:01:38 PM   
TNDommeK


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Thanks RS! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Dom Ken, humans do get mutilated everyday in different cultures. But back to what we are actually talking about...no one is talking about taking an exacto knife and slicing ear cartilage. And to be honest we have never docked or cropped any of our babies, but see nothing wrong with it. When I got my CoCo bug, she came with ears already cropped. I am far from showing animal cruelty, I spoil these babies more than I do humans.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 5:03:11 PM   
jlf1961


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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 5:17:11 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lmpishlilhellcat
When my aussie is about to get pissy with another dog his tail goes straight up and gets a little poofy. I know that should we have a baby that starts crawling or walking, he's gonna freak out. The herding instinct in him just can't handle it.


We had a brunch for about 40 people in our backyard, it included about 5 kids between 4-6. We had a screen tent set up to provide shade and for the most part the kids stayed inside of it.

Whenever they came out Raider kept herding them back inside. He'd bark and push with his head. It was funny because he had never done that before. I ended up putting him inside just to make sure no one got nipped.


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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 5:19:58 PM   
TNDommeK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961




I love this!!!!

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 5:42:45 PM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

If you have an unregistered Pitbull type dog in the UK, the police can seize and destroy it for no other reason than it looks like a Pitbulll. Because Staffordshire Bull Terriers became enormously popular in the UK a few years ago, they became a victim of their own success. Supply soon outweighed demand and consequently thousands of these lovely gentle dogs have ended up in the wrong hands. They have been used as fighting and baiting dogs and they are bred with other unregistered staffies. Charities are bursting over with registered Staffies needing new homes and thousands of unregistered staffies are now being destroyed.
Its bloody tragic.


. . . fuck the popo . . . never should have let them take your guns in the UK. They took your guns now they dogs known as good home defenders? You guys are screwed aren't you?



Stop being so fucking righteous Sadist
Pit Bulls are the most over-bred dog in the United States & it's estimated that only 1 in 600 will find a permanent home, leading the other 599 puppies and dogs to shelter-life and euthanasia. Pit bulls are the number 1 shelter-euthanized dog breed in America, as well as the most abused & misunderstood breed.
http://www.change.org/petitions/pit-bull-advocacy.

Oh and they never took our guns! We don't want guns. I will never live in a place where I fear crime. I live in a place where we never lock our doors and don't take the ignition keys out of our car in case we lose them. The only crime we have round here is the odd feral cat trying to route through the rubbish.


Although your link doesn't work, I found the Chris Brown petition for him to stop breeding Pit Bulls. To help those that empathize with your perspectives, here is a good version of the link. Chris Brown Petition

As far as over breading, same thing happens to certain races of people and it has not created a negative bias against them in my mind. Sorry it seems you feel that way about dogs. Not only am I a righteous sadist bastard but my slave is a righteous bitch . . . she got the red nose pitbull from a shelter. We both oppose BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) in all forms. Sorta' feel it would be a lot like having race specific legislation for humans.
Just sayin . . . from a righteous perspective that is.

I see you are in France. Thought you were Brit because you were talking about UK police, hence my errant gun comment*. However, I have heard rumors that a good dog can solve that feral cat problem you have... but so would a gun.
Just sayin'

http://pitbull.rescueme.org/Florida
http://www.pitbullhappenings.com/rescue.php

* The Brits had the right to “have arms for their defense” in their Bill of Rights from 1689 and they eventually gave it up.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 7:23:24 PM   
jlf1961


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My last pit, actually a pit lab mix was a great dog, until he was attacked by another dog through the fence, after that he turned aggressive towards my other dogs and after he tore one up to the tune of $500 vet bill, I had to get rid of him.

Out of 4 pit bulls I have owned, he was the only one that turned aggressive.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 9:38:29 PM   
ServosCor


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I'd like to specifically address this post to DomKen & calamitysandra.  1. How many dogs have you personally had the ears done on?  2. What exactly was the dog's experience/ reactions after the surgical procedure and during the days that followed?  3. Have you personally spoken to veterinarians regarding this subject?

           Having been involved professionally in the dog business for over 35 years I can honestly say I have only had one pup that whimpered a bit on the day following surgery.  Today the vets give pain meds and make sure the pup is comfortable during the healing time.  Dogs with cropped ears are less prone to ear infections and injuries to the ear leather.  This is a proven/accepted fact.  I have owned perhaps 8-10 dogs that I had cropped/docked.  One whimpered, did not go off his feed or seem distressed in any other way.  Perhaps the whimpering was due to confining him for his own well being.  The other pups were out and about the next day as if nothing happened other than they knew they had "something" on their heads and were curious as to what it was.  No screaming in pain, no constant whining, no depression, no loss of appetite.  Ear cropping WHEN DONE CORRECTLY AND CARED FOR PROPERLY  is NOT cruel.  You want to speak of cruelty?  Look into the number of pit bulls used for fighting, fed 'gun powder, ground glass, etc to make them mean.  That's CRUEL in my book.  What Michael Vick did to those dogs : electrocution/drowning/etc.......that to me is beyond cruel. 
           Veternarian's will tell you how the procedure and management of pain has greatly improved today.  Years back.........many years.......pups were taken and had the tails and ears chopped off w/ no vet attention/anesthesia.  Cruel?  You damn well believe it.  It happens yet today ~ done by ignorant people who don't give a rat's ass for the animal or how it feels/tolerates pain.  That .......is disgusting.
            Not all procedure's done professionally are painful.  Im a kidney recipient.....I had a 15" incision in my abdomen to allow for the insertion of the donor kidney.  Damn little pain. And I quit my pain meds long before the Dr thought I would be able to.  Good vets and owners work together to keep these animals OUT of pain.  We do NOT want to see our beloved pets suffer.  However, some of us, myself included.......prefer the look of a dog with a cropped ear or docked tail.  Are we cruel, bad owners?  Oh hell no.  99% of us are over the top in the maintenance of our pets.  They have the best of everything. Don't critize people and condemn procedures until you have went thru it and seen for yourself how easy it is on the animal.  Remember tho:  I am talking about conscientious owners and experienced caring vets.  That makes a world of difference.

           ~servos cor~

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/11/2013 10:00:09 PM   
jlf1961


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I never saw the use for having a dog's ears cropped.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/12/2013 12:04:19 AM   
jlf1961


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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/12/2013 1:01:37 AM   
jlf1961


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Lets see, i smoke and love pitbulls and guns, so lets ban automobiles. Horses are just as good as cars and eco friendly.

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 1/12/2013 1:02:34 AM >


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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/12/2013 2:56:33 AM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ServosCor
...........However, some of us, myself included.......prefer the look of a dog with a cropped ear or docked tail.  Are we cruel, bad owners?  Oh hell no.  99% of us are over the top in the maintenance of our pets.  They have the best of everything. Don't critize people and condemn procedures until you have went thru it and seen for yourself how easy it is on the animal............

I confess that Petey of The Little Rascals was my first Pit Bull love and he was a floppy.



However, like you, my preference is for the clean cropped look. If it is good enough for Sargent Stubby, it is good enough for me. For those that are not war buffs or do not know about the most famous dog in the world, i'll give you some history.



Excerpts from Defense Media Network

His paw shook the hands of three presidents, Woodrow Wilson, Warren Harding, and Calvin Coolidge.... Charles Ayer Whipple, the most prominent portrait artist of the day, painted his portrait. General of the Armies John J. Pershing personally decorated him, and he received numerous honors in addition to his wartime awards...

The American Red Cross, the YMCA, and the American Legion all made him a lifetime honorary member, with the YMCA’s membership card stating that it was good for “three bones a day and a place to sleep.” ...

...He became the unit’s unofficial mascot and, amongst other things, was taught how to salute with his right paw... During the sea voyage one of the machinist mates made Stubby a special set of dog tags. Shortly after the unit disembarked at the French port of St. Nazaire, the commanding officer discovered he had an unauthorized member in his ranks. But an earnest plea from Conroy and a sharp salute from Stubby convinced the officer to let the pit bull remain, this time as the unit’s official mascot...

...Once, the area where Stubby’s company was deployed received a pre-dawn poison gas barrage. As soon as his nose scented the first whiff of poison gas, Stubby began raising the alarm, running back and forth through the trench, barking and nipping at the slumbering soldiers. The men awoke in time to don their mask (and fit Stubby with his), and fight off the German attack...

Stubby was not content to remain in the trenches, often accompanying raids and patrols into no man’s land, the region between the opposing armies’ trench lines... Stubby became an expert in finding wounded or dead soldiers during patrols. On one patrol Stubby found something else hidden in some bushes. It was a German spy who had been mapping the American positions. Attracted by canine barking and human cries, the patrol arrived to discover the hapless spy on the ground with Stubby’s jaws clamped onto his backside. One of the soldiers confiscated the German’s Iron Cross and gave it to Stubby as a souvenir. The commanding officer of the 102d was reportedly so impressed by the incident that he “promoted” Stubby to sergeant.

Google Sgt Stubby for dozens more stories, too many to even summarize here.







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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/12/2013 3:25:33 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist


Although your link doesn't work, I found the Chris Brown petition for him to stop breeding Pit Bulls. To help those that empathize with your perspectives, here is a good version of the link. Chris Brown Petition



thanks

quote:



As far as over breading, same thing happens to certain races of people and it has not created a negative bias against them in my mind. Sorry it seems you feel that way about dogs. Not only am I a righteous sadist bastard but my slave is a righteous bitch . . . she got the red nose pitbull from a shelter. We both oppose BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) in all forms. Sorta' feel it would be a lot like having race specific legislation for humans.
Just sayin . . . from a righteous perspective that is.


Who said anything about negative bias?!? the article talks about too much supply and not enough demand. How can you compare that to races of people over breeding? They are not doing so to try and sell their offspring and if they were, theres no lack of childless couples that would love to adopt. How dare you insinuate and try and paint me as some dog hater. Point out where I said something negative about any dog breed other than a lot of pits and staffs are having it tough.
I'm happy you rescued you're dog and I take my hat off to you for doing that. Every dog I have owned has been a rescue dog. I just tend not to go for pedigrees because I feel that mixed breeds have an even tougher time than pure bred dogs that are up for adoption and I find mixed dogs tend to make better working dogs.

quote:


I see you are in France. Thought you were Brit because you were talking about UK police, hence my errant gun comment*. However, I have heard rumors that a good dog can solve that feral cat problem you have... but so would a gun.
Just sayin'



And feral cats keep the mice down.
I would never shoot an animal unless it was suffering.


< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/12/2013 3:26:52 AM >

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RE: D Pearls got me thinking about pit puppies... - 1/12/2013 3:40:52 AM   
ResidentSadist


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quote:

I find mixed dogs tend to make better working dogs.


You get something called hybrid vigor when you cross breeds. I know it is true in agriculture but I see some posts on the net saying that hybrid vigor in dogs is a myth. I haven't researched to know one way or the other. If it isn't a myth, it would account for mix breeds making for more vigorous working dogs than the pedigrees they were bred from.

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 1/12/2013 3:50:26 AM >


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