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RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/12/2013 10:41:53 AM   
LizDeluxe


Posts: 687
Joined: 10/2/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

All I know is the protocol in the real world - which is basically, for the first date, the guy asks, the guy chooses, the guy pays.
I realize today there are no hard-and-fast rules, but I ask in the fet world if the protocol is different for a new sub who never did this before.

Case in point is that I cyber met a Domme here on CM who approached me and who taught me how to address her and how to respond to her and she disagreed with my suggestion of coffee saying lunch was more appropriate and then she asked what I like to eat in order for her to pick the time and place.

All fine with me - as I like her being in control of the decisions - but - let me know, in the fet world, who's supposed to pay.

Bear in mind I have never subbed in my life in real time, so, I am unsure of protocols.
I'm sure they vary - but is there a norm?


Under the circumstances you have described I would think the expectation should be to go dutch. If you would like to, offer to get the check. It's a nice gesture. Having said that, if you like her being in control of the decisions then let her decide. I don't think there is a set protocol in this instance and if there is protocol is not my strong suit. Better yet - ask her beforehand.

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(in reply to subinsilicon)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/12/2013 12:29:50 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

All fine with me - as I like her being in control of the decisions - but - let me know, in the fet world, who's supposed to pay.



Always assume that you are! And plan to, unless told otherwise.

Myself, I have been asked out by Dommes who want to pick the time, place and location. It is a control thing ... but I cannot think of a single time that I, as the submissive, did NOT pick up the tab on the first date(s)! (note plural)



I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.

That doesn't make it a rule. Everyone is different. So you'll have to see what each particular Domme prefers. But IMO, you should always be prepared to pick up the tab.

For those who say that she's taking advantage of him, I disagree. Lunch or coffee usually isn't a very expensive meal. I've never been asked to have a first meeting at the most expensive restaurant in town. It's almost always been at a diner or a national chain restaurant like Applebee's or IHOP. That shouldn't break the budget for most working adults.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 1/12/2013 12:32:01 PM >

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(in reply to seekingOwnertoo)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/12/2013 12:37:54 PM   
seekingreality


Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA

The question is not protocol but common sense.

You suggested coffee, she escalated to lunch. Dude, she wants to dine on your dime. This does not bode well.


I don't know what everyone is so worked up about.

It's lunch. We're not talking about a huge amount of money here.

And really, I don't know that you have to work it out in advance. Heck, if you want to go dutch, when the bill comes just put down whatever amount you owe and say, "This is for my share." You might never see the woman again. But frankly, if you want to go dutch at that point, you probably don't want to see her again.

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 4:44:01 AM   
InnerExtrovert


Posts: 12
Joined: 12/31/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

There really isn't a significant enough price point difference between going to Starbucks and going to lunch to warrant that kind of hostility, IMO.




Correct. This appears to be about the anxiety of being taken advantage of before even meeting the person. Generic trust issues.

(in reply to Alecta)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 9:43:26 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Remember, as my signature says....if you can't work a vanilla relationship, you will never work a bdsm one...meaning, there is no difference. This means that most women are going to want a man to pay on the first date, be you a dom or sub. It's an etiquette thing.

If you tell her you want to go dutch, I would be extremely surprised if you ever saw her again unless she's the one who brings it up. If you find you being "forced" to pay is so awful and you feel taken advantage of by her, I'd say you are not ready for any kind of relationship and you need to deal with your women issues first.

This isn't a bdsm issue...this is an etiquette issue.



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(in reply to InnerExtrovert)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 9:53:24 AM   
ServosCor


Posts: 267
Joined: 9/3/2012
Status: offline

I would simply say something like " Ma'am are you comfortable w/ my picking up the lunch tab or do you wish to go dutch? I'd prefer to ask in advance rather than do something to offend you. "

*shrug* just my suggestion. Best of luck btw :)

(in reply to EsotericLady)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:10:12 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ServosCor



I would simply say something like " Ma'am are you comfortable w/ my picking up the lunch tab or do you wish to go dutch? I'd prefer to ask in advance rather than do something to offend you. "

*shrug* just my suggestion. Best of luck btw :)


This is a great way of putting it. Hard for anyone to take offense at that and the OP can ask via email in advance if he's embarrassed about talking about money on the first date. Also gives her chance to let you know if she was planning to pay.

I think there often is the expectation that a man will pay for the first date, be that right or wrong. If I were to ask someone out and make the first move, I would probably say 'can I buy you lunch?' or 'my treat' to make it clear that I was paying. If someone asked me out, I'd bring the money and be prepared to pay, but I think I would be a little put-off if he didn't offer. It wouldn't be a deal breaker, but it would be one of the factors to weigh up. (For the record if someone paid for me last time, I'd be offering and fully expecting to pay next time).

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Upon the hours and times of your desire?

(in reply to ServosCor)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:37:45 AM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.
See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality - it's so utterly different from the aspirational model for male dominance that I find it impossible to believe the two are even distantly related - let alone different gender expressions of the same thing.

My point was pretty simple - if she's trying to leech money out of the guy before they've even established a dynamic, then this does not bode well. This is EXACTLY the same as telling a female sub not to engage in protocol, submit or have sex with a Dom before they've established a dynamic.

Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:45:20 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Like I said earlier TAFKAA, it's not a bdsm issue, it's an etiquette issue. In any kind of dating situation, almost always the male pays...no matter what their sexual preferences or identity. This has nothing at all to do with bdsm.



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(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:48:21 AM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.
See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality - it's so utterly different from the aspirational model for male dominance that I find it impossible to believe the two are even distantly related - let alone different gender expressions of the same thing.

My point was pretty simple - if she's trying to leech money out of the guy before they've even established a dynamic, then this does not bode well. This is EXACTLY the same as telling a female sub not to engage in protocol, submit or have sex with a Dom before they've established a dynamic.

Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.



Actually, you're responding to a post by male, so that's your first problem right there when you start to rant about what's wrong with women and what they think. There are several posts above by women that give a much broader perspective to this issue. thanks for playing though.


< Message edited by Baroana -- 1/13/2013 10:49:07 AM >

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:50:47 AM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ServosCor



I would simply say something like " Ma'am are you comfortable w/ my picking up the lunch tab or do you wish to go dutch? I'd prefer to ask in advance rather than do something to offend you. "

*shrug* just my suggestion. Best of luck btw :)



Other than the fact that I hate to be called ma'am, I think you're really onto something there.

< Message edited by Baroana -- 1/13/2013 10:52:32 AM >

(in reply to ServosCor)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:52:28 AM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Like I said earlier TAFKAA, it's not a bdsm issue, it's an etiquette issue. In any kind of dating situation, almost always the male pays...no matter what their sexual preferences or identity. This has nothing at all to do with bdsm.
When social etiquette is built around gender roles established by the power dynamic and you invert those power roles, clinging to the normative social etiquette is monumentally dishonest.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:54:11 AM   
TAFKAA


Posts: 382
Joined: 1/5/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.
See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality - it's so utterly different from the aspirational model for male dominance that I find it impossible to believe the two are even distantly related - let alone different gender expressions of the same thing.

My point was pretty simple - if she's trying to leech money out of the guy before they've even established a dynamic, then this does not bode well. This is EXACTLY the same as telling a female sub not to engage in protocol, submit or have sex with a Dom before they've established a dynamic.

Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.



Actually, you're responding to a post by male, so that's your first problem right there when you start to rant about what's wrong with women and what they think. There are several posts above by women that give a much broader perspective to this issue. thanks for playing though.

*laugh* How quaintly defensive. Oh, I'm well aware of FemDom posturing on this issue. All tribute and no responsibility, eh?

(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 10:57:19 AM   
Baroana


Posts: 1480
Joined: 11/13/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo

quote:

ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

All fine with me - as I like her being in control of the decisions - but - let me know, in the fet world, who's supposed to pay.



Always assume that you are! And plan to, unless told otherwise.

Myself, I have been asked out by Dommes who want to pick the time, place and location. It is a control thing ... but I cannot think of a single time that I, as the submissive, did NOT pick up the tab on the first date(s)! (note plural)



I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.

That doesn't make it a rule. Everyone is different. So you'll have to see what each particular Domme prefers. But IMO, you should always be prepared to pick up the tab.

For those who say that she's taking advantage of him, I disagree. Lunch or coffee usually isn't a very expensive meal. I've never been asked to have a first meeting at the most expensive restaurant in town. It's almost always been at a diner or a national chain restaurant like Applebee's or IHOP. That shouldn't break the budget for most working adults.



Maybe it is because I am from the west coast, or then again maybe I am just a better person than everybody else. In any event I almost always offer to pick up the tab on a first date. I have noticed that this bothers some men, but I have also noticed that it bothers them when women do not offer to pay.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 11:18:22 AM   
ServosCor


Posts: 267
Joined: 9/3/2012
Status: offline

Well it was she who suggested lunch, she initially approached him, so it sounds as tho she is more than a bit interested. I would still make the offer of YOU paying if that's ok with her or... dutch treat if she wishes. Personally, I could see her preferring to pay as the Domme' (tho not yet in a relationship w/ this fellow) OR gracefully accepting his offer to pay as the gentleman. And.... there's nothing wrong w/ going dutch. OP.... we need follow up details on your lunch date! <G>

Guess I'm pretty old school in many ways ( Oh hell who am I kidding... Im just old LOL). I belive on a first date the man should at least OFFER to pay. And as for referring to her as Ma'am... I believe he said she told him how she wished to be address (maybe not ma'am) but good manners are never out of style. You can't go wrong being polite :)

(in reply to EsotericLady)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 2:16:01 PM   
EsotericLady


Posts: 713
Joined: 1/2/2013
Status: offline
How in the world can ANY submissive, (new or otherwise), who is respectful, obedient, and conscientious enough to wish to act in the most appropriate way when in the presence of a Dominant, deserve the comments I just read?

Good manners coming from the "1912 old-fashioned" variety could certainly teach a thing or two to those manners originating from the "2012 it's all about MEEEEEEE" variety!!!

I certainly consider that his concerns reflect "brains and politeness as essentials in a submissive."

(Thank you)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: subinsilicon

.....Bear in mind I have never subbed in my life in real time, so, I am unsure of protocols.
I'm sure they vary - but is there a norm?



First of all, 1912 called and they want their dating manual back. How dare you state it as "fact" that men are supposed to ask for dates, choose the place, and then pay for everything? Are you saying you think the man is also supposed to choose what his date orders from the menu? It's these old fashioned ideas of yours that are preventing you from knowing what to do in this situation.


(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 2:19:10 PM   
seekingreality


Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.
See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality - it's so utterly different from the aspirational model for male dominance that I find it impossible to believe the two are even distantly related - let alone different gender expressions of the same thing.

My point was pretty simple - if she's trying to leech money out of the guy before they've even established a dynamic, then this does not bode well. This is EXACTLY the same as telling a female sub not to engage in protocol, submit or have sex with a Dom before they've established a dynamic.

Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.



I think it's more a man-woman thing than a BDSM thing.

I am puzzled why so many people here are getting worked up over beng "scammed" for the price of a sandwich.

< Message edited by seekingreality -- 1/13/2013 2:23:17 PM >

(in reply to TAFKAA)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 2:32:54 PM   
EsotericLady


Posts: 713
Joined: 1/2/2013
Status: offline 		Pssst TAFKAA?

There's also a post BELOW that comes from a Domme with a much broaaaaaaaaader perspective outside the "baaayyyyyyyyyyy areaaaaaaaaaaaa."
(Said in her best Meryl Streep voice with a wink and a smile!)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

quote:

ORIGINAL: TAFKAA


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009
I agree with this. I've almost always paid for first dates. In fact, in the 20 years that I've been openly involved in the scene, I can't remember a single time when the Domme offered to pay for both of us. And I can only remember a handful of situations where we went Dutch.
See this is what I find repulsive. When a Dom has lunch with a sub, he pays because he's responsible. When a Domme has lunch with a sub, HE pays because she's a princess and is entitled to tribute.

FemDom reeks of this entitlement mentality - it's so utterly different from the aspirational model for male dominance that I find it impossible to believe the two are even distantly related - let alone different gender expressions of the same thing.

My point was pretty simple - if she's trying to leech money out of the guy before they've even established a dynamic, then this does not bode well. This is EXACTLY the same as telling a female sub not to engage in protocol, submit or have sex with a Dom before they've established a dynamic.

Yet Dommes seem to think they're entitled to this behaviour. Amazing.



Actually, you're responding to a post by male, so that's your first problem right there when you start to rant about what's wrong with women and what they think. There are several posts above by women that give a much broader perspective to this issue. thanks for playing though.



(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 2:33:10 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana
Maybe it is because I am from the west coast, or then again maybe I am just a better person than everybody else. In any event I almost always offer to pick up the tab on a first date. I have noticed that this bothers some men, but I have also noticed that it bothers them when women do not offer to pay.

I think it's sexy as hell when a woman pays for a date. It makes me feel desired and valued.

OP, regarding first dates: I've always showed up able to pay for the whole thing, and I've always offered to pay for the whole thing. A phrase like, "Is it all right with you if I pick this up?" goes over well. It's respectful of the fact that it's her choice, but still gentlemanly. I've had women smile and say yes, and I've had women pay the whole bill and then smirk at me playfully, because they got one over on me, in a good way.

Rule of thumb: offer to be a gentleman, without insisting you be one. Think of the difference between a man who holds a door open for a woman to help her and show respect, as opposed to a man who holds open a door for a woman to impose a strong man/weak woman gender role on the situation. Exact same act, but producing very different psychological atmosphere.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Protocol question: When a Domme asks a sub to go ou... - 1/13/2013 2:39:49 PM   
EsotericLady


Posts: 713
Joined: 1/2/2013
Status: offline
(Getting out the "Better Person Richter Scale" to officially see how everyone "measures up!")

Shaking head and sighing... Darn!! I just KNEW I should have worn the higher stilettos today!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana

Maybe it is because I am from the west coast, or then again maybe I am just a better person than everybody else.


(in reply to Baroana)
Profile   Post #: 60
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