RE: dropping a bondaged person (Full Version)

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MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/11/2013 3:54:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider

It is an interesting question, because even in these sort of "dynamic lifts" we're not talking about a properly dynamic load in that there will already be tension on the cords, one would hope!

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
It's not like it's exactly hard to hide some properly bomb-proof rope in and among the natural fiber stuff to add some decent redudancy if that's what it takes.

I think Osada Steve is on to the right idea with weaving synthetic into his jute but at the diameters commonly used I still wonder what we're talking about for a breaking strength...


The 4mm nylon stuff I use for cave line has 320kg breaking strain.

A couple of those, with proper redundancy... more than enough.


When you say 'proper redundancy' what do you mean? If your safety margin is 10 to 1 and you have a 60kg load, then you need 600kg of breaking strain which is 2 pieces of your cord and then to build in redundancy you need to double that.





MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/11/2013 3:56:16 AM)

Craftsman, this is a very interesting link. Thank you for posting it!




LoveSlider -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/12/2013 7:24:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider

It is an interesting question, because even in these sort of "dynamic lifts" we're not talking about a properly dynamic load in that there will already be tension on the cords, one would hope!

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoveSlider
It's not like it's exactly hard to hide some properly bomb-proof rope in and among the natural fiber stuff to add some decent redudancy if that's what it takes.

I think Osada Steve is on to the right idea with weaving synthetic into his jute but at the diameters commonly used I still wonder what we're talking about for a breaking strength...


The 4mm nylon stuff I use for cave line has 320kg breaking strain.

A couple of those, with proper redundancy... more than enough.


When you say 'proper redundancy' what do you mean? If your safety margin is 10 to 1 and you have a 60kg load, then you need 600kg of breaking strain which is 2 pieces of your cord and then to build in redundancy you need to double that.




Take a typical example of a flying hogtie. A couple of body/torso supports, waist, legs. No one cord carries the full load or would result in a catastrophic failure.
The redundancy is more important than the safety factor.

Sorry I think my use of the term "a couple" was a mistake. In practice it's more than just redundant with safety factors... it's bombproof.

Any single points of possible failure, I use some climbing hardware, which I'm pretty happy to trust.


But then again I don't see this as an art which you then try and make functional... the function of the tie is to put the sub in a place... if it looks pretty, result! But I'm not a rope artist.




CORYVAR -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/12/2013 4:32:24 PM)

where is the shame in always planning for worst to happen SO PUT A MATRESS ON THE FLOOR

then you know nothing will go wrong and even if it did its a happy landing.

I saw a demmo at Cmunch years ago that really worried me.
She was only three feet off the ground but OVER the edge of the stage s
o if she had fallen she could have got a broken spine so easily by landing part onstage and part over an extra two foot drop
the rigger was one of the best in UK and a mountaineer so his ropes were well upto the job.




Nawashiwallace -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/14/2013 8:00:38 PM)

@ MarieB...... The static load on the hand made hemp ropes that I purchase for 6mm is in the 125 to 145 kg range. That is from my personal testing of the rope before I use it in any suspension shoots or teaching sessions. After 6 suspensions with that particular piece of hemp rope, i will retire it to non-weight bearing usage. If a piece of hemp does not meet my personal static load safety requirements, it is either tossed out or used in non-weight bearing applications. Any hemp rope that has been altered by softening, oiling, dyed, ect., should never be used in suspension. It can weaken the static load rating and tinsel strength by as much as 30%.




Nawashiwallace -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/14/2013 8:13:11 PM)

The synthetic hemp rope is unreliable in my personal opinion. Osada Steve also from my recollection concurs on the subject. There is to much give in the rope and keeping a proper knot tied in place is troublesome at times. Not sure if he is still playing with creating a good and consistent synthetic rope. It is the devil child of the rope world so to speak.




MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/17/2013 8:30:29 AM)

thanks for the reply Nawashiwallace.

Just out of interest, what safety margins do you normally work to?




ResidentSadist -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/17/2013 10:25:35 AM)

It's all been said in the replies already. It shouldn't have happened if he knew his arse from a hole in the ground. Like LP's expert thread, there should be qualifications. As I said in my reply to her thread, "I have seen some people doing the same shit for 20 years and they still don't seem to have done any research or learned anything about what they are doing." That is how idiots get to be "a well known and highly respected rope master" when they don't understand the art they practice.




LoveSlider -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/17/2013 1:19:03 PM)

I have no idea how you would do qualifications in this.
I do diving instructing and there are some training agencies offering courses that would suggest they shouldn't be trusted with a snorkel never mind a decent technical dive... or worse... teaching someone who's never been in the water.

My opinion on both subjects is very similar... never mind qualifications, it isn't hard... just don't be a cunt and do a decent job of it!




MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 3:22:36 AM)

The Midori accident happened a year ago. We are still waiting for the promised 'fully investigated report'.

These are some words from her blog; "I was reminded of a single, brutal truth — a truth of which few dare to speak: if you do kink long enough, you will have a scene go bad, sometimes horrifically bad."

What she should be doing is using this bad experience as a future foundation of good judgment. Instead she is excusing herself and saying, she was just lucky that this was her first accident in 20 years. It was an accident made from poor judgment. The sky didn't fall on her head, the floor didn't cave in beneath her. The accident happened because she didn't do her risk management. She was/is continually pushing boundaries whilst becoming complacent with her knots and gear.
Surely as a mentor of so many, she should own up to her mistakes and come back to us with a detailed account of what happened and why.

Another suspension expert who is up there with the gods of rope
http://www.blogropemarks.com/pivotx/?e=269 Tells us that he will be looking into what happened. That was a year ago and As to date, he hasn't bothered to find out or at least let us know and yet he continues to do his performances, presumably in the hope that people have now forgotten.







LoveSlider -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 12:27:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The Midori accident happened a year ago. We are still waiting for the promised 'fully investigated report'.

These are some words from her blog; "I was reminded of a single, brutal truth — a truth of which few dare to speak: if you do kink long enough, you will have a scene go bad, sometimes horrifically bad."

What she should be doing is using this bad experience as a future foundation of good judgment. Instead she is excusing herself and saying, she was just lucky that this was her first accident in 20 years. It was an accident made from poor judgment. The sky didn't fall on her head, the floor didn't cave in beneath her. The accident happened because she didn't do her risk management. She was/is continually pushing boundaries whilst becoming complacent with her knots and gear.
Surely as a mentor of so many, she should own up to her mistakes and come back to us with a detailed account of what happened and why.

Another suspension expert who is up there with the gods of rope
http://www.blogropemarks.com/pivotx/?e=269 Tells us that he will be looking into what happened. That was a year ago and As to date, he hasn't bothered to find out or at least let us know and yet he continues to do his performances, presumably in the hope that people have now forgotten.



Another board I am on has a "banging your head against a wall" smiley, I feel that would be fitting to describe my opinion of that statement!


So they lift someone up by a single rope, of unknown quality, with no redundancy and a basically unknown "impact" force on a static rope and then they're surprised when it all goes Pete Tong?
And then they go "oh, shit happens" as a response. For fucks sake.


Now in my world at work if you showed that particular risk assessment when some poor fucker had ended up with 5 tonnes of machinery on their head, the health and safety lot would quite rightly be using me as a dartboard.

The bloke in that blog, fair enough he goes into a bit more detail about WHY the rope broke, but he seems to completely miss the point that there are myriad other design points in that system that could have made that failure a minor annoyance rather than a possible threat to the poor girls life!


It seems to me that they let the traditional japanese-ness of their "art" get in the way of the realities of the situation. And if you can't figure out what will happen when a bit of string snaps then you have no business designing life critical systems. Maybe they could still tie the pretty knots and get a grown up to figure out the rest.


In summation, risking your own neck is not big or clever* but can be quite amusing, risking someone else's neck is just being a cunt.


*Like diving the Doria on a rebreather with zero redundant gas. Or riding fast bikes like an absolute arsehole . Or solo climbing. None big or clever, but none will kill anyone else when it all goes wrong!




MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 1:22:35 PM)

LoveSlider, what can I say but thank you for summing it up so well!





Extravagasm -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 2:23:11 PM)

How kind of you MariaB, to keep thanking posters to this . . . to be sure, it's your wisdom and humanity that started this facinating thread and drew them here.

Your energy dedication and contributions (including writing style) make us others, proud to be here. Nearing first decade . . . think to stay.




MariaB -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 2:30:58 PM)

Darn, I wasn't sure if I should thank your or not for that but I'm going to go right ahead and thank you anyway [:)]




Extravagasm -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/18/2013 2:37:20 PM)

LOL . . . Ciao




GotSteel -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/19/2013 1:20:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nawashiwallace
@ MarieB...... The static load on the hand made hemp ropes that I purchase for 6mm is in the 125 to 145 kg range.

Whereas my 6mm perlon is assured to have a tensile strength of 2,266 pounds (1027.84kg).

6mm hemp while a community standard for suspension bondage is really weak especially when one takes into account that a human being dropping just a few inches generates hundreds of pounds of force.


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.geir.com/mythbuster.html
Jeff Fassett and I conducted a simple test using a dynamometer attached to a bolted anchor. In the first part of the test, I attached to the anchor using a daisy chain so that i hung freely two feet below it. With a backup rope in place, i pulled myself up a few inches and let go so that I fell statically on to the anchor. The force on the anchor was shocking - the dynamometer measured a peak force of 900 pounds on the first drop. I subsequently took slightly further falls, and found that the force on the anchor was over 2,000 pounds when falling just one foot. I stopped at this point simply due to pain.




GotSteel -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/19/2013 1:32:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I think Osada Steve is on to the right idea with weaving synthetic into his jute but at the diameters commonly used I still wonder what we're talking about for a breaking strength...


Here's a thread on fetlife about braiding high strength synthetics into traditional rope: https://fetlife.com/groups/372/group_posts/3485381




Nawashiwallace -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/19/2013 9:22:26 PM)

My safety standards when it comes to suspension may be a bit extreme when it comes to safety. My hoist I use is a three lune hoist capable of lifting 7500 lbs. Any rope that I use, natural or synthetic, I prefer not to use more than a half a dozen times before retiring them from suspension purposes. Granted they could be used more than that depending on appearance and condition, but I prefer to error on the side of safety. I have seen many different mats and mattresses used for safety if something should go wrong. I believe that some of these area bit on the harder side to cushion a fall for safety sake. I designed a 3 piece mat system for my use. The top layer consist of a 3" memory foam. Layer 2 consist of a 4" polystyrene bead base that has contained side blow out panels for impacted reduction backed up by an air chambered layer that is pressure released on impact and then self inflating when the pressure is relieved. All in all the matt is 10" thick and encased in fabric. Matt can be used on the floor, but I have mine set into the floor for ascetic purposes for photo shoots. A fall from 2 feet is like falling into a foam pit at a gymnastics training facility.




LoveSlider -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/20/2013 3:43:43 AM)

Climbers bouldering mat... cheap, easily obtained and designed for the job...




FrostedFlake -> RE: dropping a bondaged person (2/20/2013 5:22:14 AM)

Thank you, Maria. And you other folks too.




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