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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 1:43:45 AM   
Nosathro


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Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... Just a good door and lock will do. If they can't get in the room they can't kill...quickly anyway.

Butch



true enough, but I have been reading various "Specialists" who claim that mental illness related violence is on the rise in the US. However I can find no Justice Department stats that back that up, so I have not really posted much about it.

Around here, the lever action rifle is more common than the so called assault weapons. Admittedly eight of my 15 guns are assault weapon type rifles, and I use the .223 AR to deal with bobcats and such around here, the bigger calibers are used against wild hogs, that the state of Texas says they will deal with them, but hasnt.

Hog hunters charge big money to clear a farm or ranch, this area has been in Drought conditions going on 12 years, the farmers and ranchers around me cannot afford to pay the bill, so I and a few friends go out and hunt the hogs for nothing. Last year one rancher gave the six of us a side of beef for trying to clear the hogs from his property, but the problem is that when hogs arent rooting up fields, they are having baby hogs.


My view.....I think I stated it before

http://www.care2.com/causes/actually-mentally-ill-people-are-more-likely-to-be-victims-of-violence.html

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 1:48:11 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

To me it is not how good of a fight an armed security guard could put up in a shoot out...but... just his presence would or at least could be a deterrent. Otherwise nut cases may not pick a school as a target if they know there is an armed security guard.

If nothing else the security guard would be the first target and that may give the rest time to lock down their rooms and call police.

Otherwise I see nothing wrong in having trained armed security in schools. I don’t believe teachers or those not properly trained or sanctioned should be armed however.

Butch


"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/18/16590086-school-security-guard-in-michigan-leaves-gun-in-bathroom-officials-say?lite

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 4:00:33 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		I think unless you have been in a true life-or-death situation, it is very hard to imagine what such a situation is like. It isn't anything like tv - for one thing, they come home with shaking hands and nerves shot for a while. I don't know why people think cops are superheros and unaffected by what they do. .... Well, yes i do - people believe tv shows are somehow real, and a cop can shoot someone and shake it off like stepping on a bug.

Someone shoots at them and the adrenaline kicks in and everything goes to shit.


and people want less trained armed guards in school? Why less trained? - well, are you willing to pay an armed guard what a cop makes? I don't think so. And for that matter, are you going to insist on a background check similar to the police departments? And a psych. exam? And even then, how do you know that the person you are hoping to protect your kids aren't there to prey on them? What happens when the first time one of the armed guards has sex with a 13 year old and says she asked for it... and she may well have.

I see this being a big can of worms.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 7:28:27 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

My view.....I think I stated it before


I believe this links author is mistaken ,not in the facts, but how he is using them. There is no doubt that any person that would commit any of the mass murder crimes in the news of late is insane. It makes no difference if the mentally ill or more likely to be victims of violence or not. That would not be an excuse to shift the spotlight from our poor mental healthcare system in the United States away from the obvious link to these atrocities.

The better the mental health care ….the fewer mentally ill…the fewer more likely to be victims of violence… the fewer insane murders with weapons.

I don’t believe America is blaming the mentally ill for these murders but they are blaming mental illness and many believe better mental health care is one of many directions we should be going to solve this problem.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Nosathro)
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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 7:35:41 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 7:46:45 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

What happens when the first time one of the armed guards has sex with a 13 year old and says she asked for it... and she may well have.

I see this being a big can of worms.


I guess that would mean no teachers as well... they have been known to abuse children as well...and don't forget janitors or can a school do without them... oh oh the lunch lady as well... she has been known to take a 13 year old in the backroom too.

Hell why even have schools...nothing but a can of hormones gone wild worms.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 1/21/2013 7:48:49 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 8:17:10 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 8:52:16 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.


So you are saying that because these two schools had armed guards and someone was able to go on a killing spree anyway, that NO school should have armed guards?

Can you positively say that the presence of armed guards in other schools has NEVER had a deterrent effect on someone considering the idea of a mass killing or other illegal activity at those schools?

Pointing out two instances that may have been less than ideal does not mean that the presence of armed security may have actually been beneficial countless times.

In the old west, stagecoaches often carried shipments of gold and other valuables. On those runs there was usually an armed guard "riding shotgun" to protect those shipments. Sometimes the stage would be robbed anyway. By your thinking, since some of those stagecoaches were robbed, even with an armed guard, there was no point in guarding any of them. Yep...very wise.

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 9:01:46 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.

Va Tech the armed guards were lured to another area with a false report and the deputy at columbine ran away to get help, it was my understanding he was unarmed. The Sheriff had multiple chances to stop the kids but refused to act on the complaints untill people were dead.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 9:11:08 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.


So you are saying that because these two schools had armed guards and someone was able to go on a killing spree anyway, that NO school should have armed guards?

Can you positively say that the presence of armed guards in other schools has NEVER had a deterrent effect on someone considering the idea of a mass killing or other illegal activity at those schools?

Pointing out two instances that may have been less than ideal does not mean that the presence of armed security may have actually been beneficial countless times.

In the old west, stagecoaches often carried shipments of gold and other valuables. On those runs there was usually an armed guard "riding shotgun" to protect those shipments. Sometimes the stage would be robbed anyway. By your thinking, since some of those stagecoaches were robbed, even with an armed guard, there was no point in guarding any of them. Yep...very wise.


Well, by your example I would say someone "riding shotgun" was in some cases not a deterrent. I also fail to see the comparison between stagecoaches and schools. Secondly, the University I was attending, if there was trouble on campus, the city police was called, we had armed guards, but there were never around. My sister who also attended a University in another state told me the University calls there armed guards as an after thought. I would admit that finding proof that armed guards at school have any deterrent factor to be hard, if not impossible. I read that it cost each School district in the US about 15 million dollars to have armed guards, and schools are already having budget problems, and as I have pointed out, may not be cost effective. In more detail at Columbine one of the reason the armed guard stop shooting was alot to student got in the way, so again would armed guards really work.

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 9:24:13 AM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		How does it benefit anyone to make up stuff like that?

The VT shooter shot multiple people and then hid for 2 hours before shooting the rest, that was hardly a false report.
Tech is a public school, and per long standing federal law has a POST certified police department like any city PD, not armed security guards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_Police_Department

And the notion that an on-duty LEO was unarmed and ran away can only come from some sort of pro-criminal lobby wishful thinking. If the deputy at Columbine was unarmed, then what did he use to shoot at the attackers with, which allowed Brian Anderson to escape?

As far as that last bit of conspiracy theory whackiness, I won't waste time bothering you with any more facts from the real world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Va Tech the armed guards were lured to another area with a false report and the deputy at columbine ran away to get help, it was my understanding he was unarmed. The Sheriff had multiple chances to stop the kids but refused to act on the complaints untill people were dead.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 1/21/2013 9:50:57 AM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 9:27:01 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.

Va Tech the armed guards were lured to another area with a false report and the deputy at columbine ran away to get help, it was my understanding he was unarmed. The Sheriff had multiple chances to stop the kids but refused to act on the complaints untill people were dead.


In Cho case being lured away is not true, in fact the School police were aware of him and looking for him, it first attack at 6:45am was in another building on campus the Amber Johnston Hall where he shot and killed two people, he than went back to his dorm room and changed clothing and went to the post office to mail a package, the attack at Norris Hall was 2 hours after the first attack.

The Sheriff Department did responded to the call at Columbine, they could not get into the buildings due to all the students running out of the building and those who were shot outside. The Sheriff Deputy responded first to the wounded, it took about 40 minutes, even if they entered the building immediatly they still would have to find Klebold and Harris who were on the move and not at a specific place.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 1/21/2013 9:32:27 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 9:41:34 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Might I suggest that we arm our police officers with select fire mini Uzis.


You know you reminded me of something, when President Reagon was shot. There were some two dozon Secret Service Agents guarding him, it is reported three had Uzis, the Secret Service also had gone to 9mm semi auto pistols, yet with all this Hinkley and a .22 caliber Rohm RG-14 gets off all six rounds. Alot of good the Uzis did...

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 10:45:38 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

"Trained armed security in schools", You mean like this one?


So because of this idiot we should just leave the hundreds of thousands of our schools unprotected when they are now the obvious target for any insane murderer wanting his or her name in the news.

No solution is perfect and I am very open to any besides armed guards but until one comes along doing nothing is as criminal as the killer himself.

Butch


There are incidents of schools, they armed guards, but it did not do much good, Columbine and Virginia Tech come to mine.

Va Tech the armed guards were lured to another area with a false report and the deputy at columbine ran away to get help, it was my understanding he was unarmed. The Sheriff had multiple chances to stop the kids but refused to act on the complaints untill people were dead.


In Cho case being lured away is not true, in fact the School police were aware of him and looking for him, it first attack at 6:45am was in another building on campus the Amber Johnston Hall where he shot and killed two people, he than went back to his dorm room and changed clothing and went to the post office to mail a package, the attack at Norris Hall was 2 hours after the first attack.

The Sheriff Department did responded to the call at Columbine, they could not get into the buildings due to all the students running out of the building and those who were shot outside. The Sheriff Deputy responded first to the wounded, it took about 40 minutes, even if they entered the building immediatly they still would have to find Klebold and Harris who were on the move and not at a specific place.

The sheriffs department in Colimbine had four complaints against the kids concering their illegal possesion of firearms and did nothing, that was the time to stop it.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 10:56:47 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		history1900s.about.com/od/famouscrimesscandals/a/columbine.htm
you may notice that the deputy on duty at the school did nothing thats were I get this crap

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 11:12:16 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

history1900s.about.com/od/famouscrimesscandals/a/columbine.htm
you may notice that the deputy on duty at the school did nothing thats were I get this crap


can't get the link...1900....I thought was in 1999, your right it's crap.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 11:16:42 AM   
igor2003


Posts: 1718
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Well, by your example I would say someone "riding shotgun" was in some cases not a deterrent. I also fail to see the comparison between stagecoaches and schools. Secondly, the University I was attending, if there was trouble on campus, the city police was called, we had armed guards, but there were never around. My sister who also attended a University in another state told me the University calls there armed guards as an after thought. I would admit that finding proof that armed guards at school have any deterrent factor to be hard, if not impossible. I read that it cost each School district in the US about 15 million dollars to have armed guards, and schools are already having budget problems, and as I have pointed out, may not be cost effective. In more detail at Columbine one of the reason the armed guard stop shooting was alot to student got in the way, so again would armed guards really work.


You are correct in that sometimes it was not a deterrent. But how many times WAS it a deterrent? There is absolutely no way to know. But my own guess is that it worked more often than not. I'd be willing to bet that the owners of the valuables thought so as well, since they kept hiring the armed guards, and to not have it guarded at all would have been absolute stupidity.

Of course you don't see the the comparison, since to see the comparison you would have to admit to the error of your assessment of armed guards at schools. Your comprehensive skills seems to be very selective.

Sometimes armed guards may not be able to shoot. Sometimes they would be able to. One thing is for sure...if they are NOT EVEN THERE they won't have any effect at all. And to some extent, just having them present is going to prevent an encounter from even happening to begin with so that there is no need to shoot. But I'm sure you don't comprehend that either...or at least you won't acknowledge it.

_____________________________

If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy. - Red Green

At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

Never miss a good chance to shut up. - Will Rogers


(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 12:28:57 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		There was one person filing complaints against one of them. The authorities ultimately made arrests and got convictions.
And none of that supports the claim that 'the Sheriff' himself aided the shooters at the school.

If you want to suspend the 4th and 14th amendments to the Constitution, then come right out and say so.
If you are simply playing 'shoulda-coulda-woulda' armchair expert in hindsight, go for it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The sheriffs department in Colimbine had four complaints against the kids concering their illegal possesion of firearms and did nothing, that was the time to stop it.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 1/21/2013 12:36:00 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 12:34:50 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		I said I wouldn't waste any more time pointing out the facts to you, but just in case anyone else is tempted to fall for the whacky conspiracy theories or tin-foil hat websites, here are the real facts:

At 11:22, the custodian called Deputy Gardner on the school radio, requesting assistance in the Senior parking lot. The only paved route took him around the school to the east and south on Pierce Street, where, at 11:23 he heard on his police radio that a female was down, struck by a car, he assumed. He turned on his lights and siren. While exiting his patrol car in the Senior lot at 11:24, he heard another call on the school radio, "Neil, there's a shooter in the school".[23] Harris, at the West Entrance, immediately fired his rifle at Gardner, who was sixty yards away.[23] Gardner returned fire with his service pistol.[31] He was not wearing his prescription eyeglasses, and was unable to hit the shooters.[32]

Thus, five minutes after the shooting started, and two minutes after the first radio call, Gardner was engaged in a gun fight with the student shooters. There were already two dead and ten wounded. Harris fired ten shots and Gardner fired four, before Harris ducked back into the building. No one was hit. Gardner reported on his police radio, "Shots in the building. I need someone in the south lot with me."[23]

The gunfight distracted Harris and Klebold from the injured Brian Anderson.[4] Anderson escaped to the library and hid inside an open staff break room. Back in the school, the duo moved along the main North Hallway, throwing pipe bombs and shooting at anyone they encountered. They shot Stephanie Munson in the ankle, although she was able to walk out of the school. The pair shot out the windows to the East Entrance of the school. After proceeding through the hall several times and shooting toward—and missing—any students they saw, Harris and Klebold went toward the West Entrance and turned into the Library Hallway.

Deputy Paul Smoker, a motorcycle patrolman for the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office, was writing a traffic ticket north of the school when the "female down" call came in at 11:23. Taking the shortest route, he drove his motorcycle over grass between the athletic fields and headed toward the West Entrance. When he saw Deputy Scott Taborsky following him in a patrol car, he abandoned his motorcycle for the safety of the car. The two deputies had begun to rescue two wounded students near the ball fields when another gunfight broke out at 11:26, between Harris, back at the West Entrance, and Gardner, still in the parking lot. Deputy Smoker returned fire from the hilltop, and Harris retreated. Again, no one was hit.[24

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre#Police_response_11:22_a.m.

Your claim that the deputy was unarmed and ran away is simply another fantasy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

history1900s.about.com/od/famouscrimesscandals/a/columbine.htm
you may notice that the deputy on duty at the school did nothing thats were I get this crap



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 12:49:07 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: igor2003
So you are saying that because these two schools had armed guards and someone was able to go on a killing spree anyway, that NO school should have armed guards?

No, he's saying that because the armed guards proved completely useless in those two cases, what good will they do anywhere else?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to igor2003)
Profile   Post #: 40
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