RE: Guns (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Guns


There is too much regulation already.
  10% (28)
There should be far more stringent background checks.
  15% (39)
Reinstate the ban on assault guns.
  11% (29)
Make conceal and carry the law in all 50 states.
  10% (28)
Make gun classes mandatory.
  16% (42)
The only guns availible to the public should be hunting rifles.
  4% (12)
The 2nd amendment includes individuals owning firearms.
  21% (54)
The 2nd amendment does not include individuals, it's been distorted.
  3% (8)
I wish my country had gun laws similar to the US
  0% (1)
I don't want my country to have gun laws like the US
  6% (16)


Total Votes : 257
(last vote on : 2/2/2013 9:53:19 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/29/2013 10:58:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50



Whoa, I've gotta quote this before you change your mind and edit it out....!

If I'm understanding this, you're actually suggesting a reasonable gun control not currently law?

As I live and breathe.... See, now I'm gonna expect shit of you - the sane, non defensive variety! lol

Focus.




Show me one place where I said that the gun laws in the united states were effective?

They arent. There are no regulations dictating the kind of storage for a firearm, no regulations limiting the kind of firearm you own based on location of residence.

Tell me, why would a suburban home owner need an AR15...


I'm leaving it here as I'm off out for tea....

But WTF????? You're making my arguments, now...!

As I said - later.... [sm=jaw.gif]

Focus.




jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/29/2013 11:02:36 PM)

Focus I am not going to quote you, but in reference to your point about gun related suicide in the US, here are the facts I found.

quote:

Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.


source

I hope that helps.




BamaD -> RE: Guns (1/29/2013 11:11:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

From what I can tell, the British and Aussie attitude of "It works for us, and therefore it will work for everyone" is a major problem with discussing a uniquely American problem with them.

How about the entire western world? And how typically American of you to assume your country of all of them is the only one marching in step. The only thing unique about your "American problem" is the death toll per capita (AND total) the 2nd amendment enables.



quote:

They propose extreme solutions to a problem where a middle ground can be found.

What "extreme solutions"??? I've related some of what I consider extreme solutions in Australia's gun laws and recently invited you (page 16, post #316) to contribute to a "middle ground" between that and America's relatively laughable "controls" and here you are whining indignantly like it's your idea, stolen...! I even posted 3 examples for discussion!

Hope the rest of your post was worth the effort - I stopped reading at the above quote as I have low tolerance of tripe. Figured I had the gist....

Focus.


Are you saying that if we would just repeal the 2nd and 4th and convert to your way of thinking we would be reasonable?
Why don't you adopt our constitution then you could be reasonable




jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/29/2013 11:17:11 PM)

Bama, unfortunately it is a fact most people not born or raised in the US have no clue about the Constitution. Just like I have no clue aside from the magna carta what the British Government is based on, the part the Royal family plays, or what makes em drive on the wrong side of the road.

I would not, however, presume to tell them to change it, regardless of how wrong I think they may be.

Under British Law, newspapers can publish pictures of nude women, they cant do that in the States.




BamaD -> RE: Guns (1/29/2013 11:55:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Bama, unfortunately it is a fact most people not born or raised in the US have no clue about the Constitution. Just like I have no clue aside from the magna carta what the British Government is based on, the part the Royal family plays, or what makes em drive on the wrong side of the road.

I would not, however, presume to tell them to change it, regardless of how wrong I think they may be.

Under British Law, newspapers can publish pictures of nude women, they cant do that in the States.

My point exactly none of my business how they want to do things and I would not presume to tell them let alone call them unevolved and extreme if they told me something would be in violation of their laws or societal standards.




jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 12:15:14 AM)

I am attempting to be diplomatic, See my common ground thread.




Nosathro -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 12:27:40 AM)

I really have to agree with this, finally something something that makes sense

http://news.yahoo.com/belafonte-blacks-participate-gun-debate-005308317.html




imdoingitagain -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 12:56:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I really have to agree with this, finally something something that makes sense

http://news.yahoo.com/belafonte-blacks-participate-gun-debate-005308317.html


Yes, they really do especially since the only one I have seen say anything is one of the most prominent in the country and he feels that the American people "do not have the right to unregulated rights" and that the "Constitution and Bill of Rights are not absolute." So, it might be a good thing to get a different leader in the black community to say something that isn't completely ridiculous.
Though, this seems to hold the trend for any and all political discussions: I know there are smart people on both sides of every issue but we always seem to only hear from the ones with the most idiotic ideas.




Politesub53 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 4:05:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Regarding AR15 rate of fire.......... Got any facts...... [8|]

It's difficult to have an intelligent conversation about guns with people who don't have the slightest fucking clue what they're talking about. But since that's what we're stuck with, and since you're the one who claimed "rate of fire" as a factor with the AR-15, where are your facts? Hmm? You want a fact? I'll give you one: You don't even know what a semi-automatic firearm is. Because if you did, you wouldn't be making these claims.

K.



Typical reply from you, nothing new there then.




thishereboi -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 4:17:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Except that since we are discussing an American problem those way out of line with American thinking are for this conversation extremists


This conversation is occurring on an international forum - so, those out of line with the average point of view here are the extremists.

Not when we are discussing a purly American problem and the non Americans insist on discussing it without taking our Constitition into account talk if you want to but don't ignore the reallity of the situation, and don't call us extremists because we do.


It's not only the constitution they are ignoring. They are ignoring the realities of where we live and how big it is. One poster said if wild animals are a problem, we should just call the police to come and take care of the problem for us [8|] The fact that we would have to quadruple the police force and they would have to all work 24/7 just to keep up doesn't seem to register.

note: quadruple is just a guess and in rural areas they would have to be stationed all over the county in order to be effective at all.




imdoingitagain -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 5:31:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Regarding AR15 rate of fire.......... Got any facts...... [8|]

It's difficult to have an intelligent conversation about guns with people who don't have the slightest fucking clue what they're talking about. But since that's what we're stuck with, and since you're the one who claimed "rate of fire" as a factor with the AR-15, where are your facts? Hmm? You want a fact? I'll give you one: You don't even know what a semi-automatic firearm is. Because if you did, you wouldn't be making these claims.

K.



Typical reply from you, nothing new there then.

Actually, it's a perfectly legitimate concern when people are calling for a ban on "assault weapons" and their only qualification for a weapon to be an assault weapon is "it looks scary to me"...



[image]local://upfiles/1189639/DC5B5C3176434645883CA8F6C9ED46E1.jpg[/image]




jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 6:13:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Except that since we are discussing an American problem those way out of line with American thinking are for this conversation extremists


This conversation is occurring on an international forum - so, those out of line with the average point of view here are the extremists.

Not when we are discussing a purly American problem and the non Americans insist on discussing it without taking our Constitition into account talk if you want to but don't ignore the reallity of the situation, and don't call us extremists because we do.


It's not only the constitution they are ignoring. They are ignoring the realities of where we live and how big it is. One poster said if wild animals are a problem, we should just call the police to come and take care of the problem for us [8|] The fact that we would have to quadruple the police force and they would have to all work 24/7 just to keep up doesn't seem to register.

note: quadruple is just a guess and in rural areas they would have to be stationed all over the county in order to be effective at all.



I must have missed that post.

But you are right, quadrupling the Sheriff's forces in rural areas would be impractical at best, and impossible to maintain. Besides, it is not Law enforcement that has the responsibility for wild animals that are it is the state fish and wildlife department.

Which is why hunting is legal in the US.

Lets look at the primary nuisance animal in the Texas, wild pigs.

quote:

Feral hogs are capable of breeding at six months of age but eight to ten months is normal, provided there is good nutrition. Under poor habitat conditions, sows have been known to eat their young. Gestation is around 115 days with an average litter size of four to six, but under good conditions may have ten to twelve young. While capable of producing two litters per year, research has shown the majority of sows have only one per year. Young may be born throughout the year with peak production in the early spring. The young are born with a 1:1 male to female sex ratio.

Feral hogs are omnivorous, meaning they eat both plant and animal matter. They are very opportunistic feeders and much of their diet is based on seasonal availability. Foods include grasses, forbs, roots and tubers, browse, mast (acorns), fruits, bulbs and mushrooms. Animal matter includes invertebrates (insects, snails, earthworms, etc.), reptiles, amphibians, and carrion (dead animals), as well as live mammals and birds if given the opportunity. Feral hogs are especially fond of acorns and domestic agricultural crops such as corn, milo, rice, wheat, soybeans, peanuts, potatoes, watermelons and cantaloupe. Feral hogs feed primarily at night and during twilight hours, but will also feed during daylight in cold or wet weather.

The feral hog has managed to survive, adapt, and increase their numbers despite attempts at population control. While it is possible to keep the population in check with continuous control, it is highly unlikely to eradicate a hog population within an established range.
The Feral Hog in Texas


quote:

Wild hogs are among the most destructive invasive species in the United States today. Two million to six million of the animals are wreaking havoc in at least 39 states and four Canadian provinces; half are in Texas, where they do some $400 million in damages annually. They tear up recreational areas, occasionally even terrorizing tourists in state and national parks, and squeeze out other wildlife.

Texas allows hunters to kill wild hogs year-round without limits or capture them alive to take to slaughterhouses to be processed and sold to restaurants as exotic meat. Thousands more are shot from helicopters. The goal is not eradication, which few believe possible, but control.

A Plague of Pigs in Texas




But there is this little tidbit
Nuisance Wildlife in Texas

Alligators
Bears
Cowbirds
Urban Coyotes
Feral Hogs
Mountain Lions
Overabundant Deer

Ticks
Woodpecker Damage
Of course this is dependent on where you live.

For my area, I have highlighted the animals we have to deal with.

Now many may ask who is to blame for the Feral hog problem since hogs were not native to the US. The answer is simple, the Spanish, English, French, Dutch and every other European colonist that came to this country after Columbus, and those brilliant individuals who imported Russian Boar to Texas for exotic game hunting.

As for mountain lions, they are considered endangered, so they are off limits to hunt unless they begin to kill livestock.

Overabundant deer, that is strictly a human caused problem. On one hand, farmers and ranchers have made food plentiful for deer simply by doing what the do, ranchers grow large hay fields and farmers grow crops. On the other hand, every time the state starts talking about increasing the hunting limits and allow a limited number to be taken out of season, some animal rights group or environmental groups go to court to stop it.

Urban and rural coyotes are a nationwide problem, they began in the American west and migrated east, to fill the void left when the colonists exterminated them.

With that information people from other countries may begin to realize just what kind of wildlife problems we face here. Professional Pest Eradication hunters are a booming business in the state, and they charge a considerable sum, which is why five friends and I do the job just for the meat when dealing with the hogs, and the bounty on coyotes.

Accepted methods of dealing with hogs and coyotes are traps, and hunting.




jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 6:36:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Regarding AR15 rate of fire.......... Got any facts...... [8|]

It's difficult to have an intelligent conversation about guns with people who don't have the slightest fucking clue what they're talking about. But since that's what we're stuck with, and since you're the one who claimed "rate of fire" as a factor with the AR-15, where are your facts? Hmm? You want a fact? I'll give you one: You don't even know what a semi-automatic firearm is. Because if you did, you wouldn't be making these claims.

K.



Typical reply from you, nothing new there then.



Polite, I answered that question here. If you would like I will get the link that will verify that information, I have no problem doing so.

If you google it, you have to know that many sites discuss the rate of fired for the original AR15 which was a military weapon, not the Colt made civilian version.

Then there are things like This. that allow you to emulate full auto fire.




Nosathro -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 7:52:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Except that since we are discussing an American problem those way out of line with American thinking are for this conversation extremists


This conversation is occurring on an international forum - so, those out of line with the average point of view here are the extremists.

Not when we are discussing a purly American problem and the non Americans insist on discussing it without taking our Constitition into account talk if you want to but don't ignore the reallity of the situation, and don't call us extremists because we do.


It's not only the constitution they are ignoring. They are ignoring the realities of where we live and how big it is. One poster said if wild animals are a problem, we should just call the police to come and take care of the problem for us [8|] The fact that we would have to quadruple the police force and they would have to all work 24/7 just to keep up doesn't seem to register.

note: quadruple is just a guess and in rural areas they would have to be stationed all over the county in order to be effective at all.



I must have missed that post.

But you are right, quadrupling the Sheriff's forces in rural areas would be impractical at best, and impossible to maintain. Besides, it is not Law enforcement that has the responsibility for wild animals that are it is the state fish and wildlife department.

Which is why hunting is legal in the US.

Lets look at the primary nuisance animal in the Texas, wild pigs.

quote:

Feral hogs are capable of breeding at six months of age but eight to ten months is normal, provided there is good nutrition. Under poor habitat conditions, sows have been known to eat their young. Gestation is around 115 days with an average litter size of four to six, but under good conditions may have ten to twelve young. While capable of producing two litters per year, research has shown the majority of sows have only one per year. Young may be born throughout the year with peak production in the early spring. The young are born with a 1:1 male to female sex ratio.

Feral hogs are omnivorous, meaning they eat both plant and animal matter. They are very opportunistic feeders and much of their diet is based on seasonal availability. Foods include grasses, forbs, roots and tubers, browse, mast (acorns), fruits, bulbs and mushrooms. Animal matter includes invertebrates (insects, snails, earthworms, etc.), reptiles, amphibians, and carrion (dead animals), as well as live mammals and birds if given the opportunity. Feral hogs are especially fond of acorns and domestic agricultural crops such as corn, milo, rice, wheat, soybeans, peanuts, potatoes, watermelons and cantaloupe. Feral hogs feed primarily at night and during twilight hours, but will also feed during daylight in cold or wet weather.

The feral hog has managed to survive, adapt, and increase their numbers despite attempts at population control. While it is possible to keep the population in check with continuous control, it is highly unlikely to eradicate a hog population within an established range.
The Feral Hog in Texas


quote:

Wild hogs are among the most destructive invasive species in the United States today. Two million to six million of the animals are wreaking havoc in at least 39 states and four Canadian provinces; half are in Texas, where they do some $400 million in damages annually. They tear up recreational areas, occasionally even terrorizing tourists in state and national parks, and squeeze out other wildlife.

Texas allows hunters to kill wild hogs year-round without limits or capture them alive to take to slaughterhouses to be processed and sold to restaurants as exotic meat. Thousands more are shot from helicopters. The goal is not eradication, which few believe possible, but control.

A Plague of Pigs in Texas




But there is this little tidbit
Nuisance Wildlife in Texas

Alligators
Bears
Cowbirds
Urban Coyotes
Feral Hogs
Mountain Lions
Overabundant Deer

Ticks
Woodpecker Damage
Of course this is dependent on where you live.

For my area, I have highlighted the animals we have to deal with.

Now many may ask who is to blame for the Feral hog problem since hogs were not native to the US. The answer is simple, the Spanish, English, French, Dutch and every other European colonist that came to this country after Columbus, and those brilliant individuals who imported Russian Boar to Texas for exotic game hunting.

As for mountain lions, they are considered endangered, so they are off limits to hunt unless they begin to kill livestock.

Overabundant deer, that is strictly a human caused problem. On one hand, farmers and ranchers have made food plentiful for deer simply by doing what the do, ranchers grow large hay fields and farmers grow crops. On the other hand, every time the state starts talking about increasing the hunting limits and allow a limited number to be taken out of season, some animal rights group or environmental groups go to court to stop it.

Urban and rural coyotes are a nationwide problem, they began in the American west and migrated east, to fill the void left when the colonists exterminated them.

With that information people from other countries may begin to realize just what kind of wildlife problems we face here. Professional Pest Eradication hunters are a booming business in the state, and they charge a considerable sum, which is why five friends and I do the job just for the meat when dealing with the hogs, and the bounty on coyotes.

Accepted methods of dealing with hogs and coyotes are traps, and hunting.


There was a TV show about a family that hunted boars in Texas, they used dogs mostly to capture the boars. I emailed them and sugguest boar spears. Also there a specific dog that is used in controling bears, some agencies are using them.




BamaD -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 12:35:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am attempting to be diplomatic, See my common ground thread.

Yes I have read it, good job




Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 1:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Whoa, I've gotta quote this before you change your mind and edit it out....!

If I'm understanding this, you're actually suggesting a reasonable gun control not currently law?

As I live and breathe.... See, now I'm gonna expect shit of you - the sane, non defensive variety! lol

Focus.




Show me one place where I said that the gun laws in the united states were effective?

As far as I recall, you haven't.

What you have done is typical of all the pro-gunners posting in these discussions. Steadfastly refused to accept there's anything wrong with those INEFFECTIVE laws you speak of. You just go all paranoid and defensive and treat us like foreign invaders. Like gun related deaths are uniquely American and have no correlation to gun related deaths in Australia or other western nations.

And you're certainly not willing to talk about reasonable potential reforms - TILL NOW. I've posted many times now - that the only reforms pro-gun Americans have been willing to consider have been gun classes, background checks and armed guards in schools - passive reforms. It's only since yesterday you've been willing to talk "middle ground" - FACT.

Focus.




Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 1:10:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Focus I am not going to quote you, but in reference to your point about gun related suicide in the US, here are the facts I found.

quote:

Firearms and Suicide

Although most gun owners reportedly keep a firearm in their home for "protection" or "self defense," 83 percent of gun-related deaths in these homes are the result of a suicide, often by someone other than the gun owner.
Firearms are used in more suicides than homicides.
Death by firearms is the fastest growing method of suicide.
Firearms account for 50 percent of all suicides.


source

I hope that helps.


I'm not bothering with the link since there's nothing in your figures I'd dispute. Despite all of Australia's reforms, most gun deaths here are still suicides. All you're showing here is that there's nothing inique about America's gun deaths overall (except the massively high totals).

Focus.




punisher440 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 1:18:06 PM)

quote:

There was a TV show about a family that hunted boars in Texas, they used dogs mostly to capture the boars. I emailed them and sugguest boar spears. Also there a specific dog that is used in controling bears, some agencies are using them.


I'd like to see you tackle a 500 pound wild Russian boar with a spear or one your play swords.Or even grab one of the little pigs and then deal with a pissed off sow.[hint,you don't want to grab a little pig from a tame sow unless you like pain].[8|]




Politesub53 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 1:28:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Polite, I answered that question here. If you would like I will get the link that will verify that information, I have no problem doing so.

If you google it, you have to know that many sites discuss the rate of fired for the original AR15 which was a military weapon, not the Colt made civilian version.

Then there are things like This. that allow you to emulate full auto fire.


JLF......Thank you. I know the M16 assault rifle is a version of the AR-15. I also read an ad for AR-15s that can fire 60-100 rounds a minute, that seems way above whats required to me.




Politesub53 -> RE: Guns (1/30/2013 1:29:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: imdoingitagain
Actually, it's a perfectly legitimate concern when people are calling for a ban on "assault weapons" and their only qualification for a weapon to be an assault weapon is "it looks scary to me"...



[image]local://upfiles/1189639/DC5B5C3176434645883CA8F6C9ED46E1.jpg[/image]


Semantics. I have never said anything indicated in your post.




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