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Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 5:15:53 AM

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Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 7:34:10 AM

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Saddly it is

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 3:21:28 PM

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Yes and it's creating a whole new hatred for the US and particularly among most middle eastern countries and their muslin populations.

(in reply to Nosathro)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 3:29:09 PM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

I am so glad to see someone standing up to this problem - it is murder, as you say. But people (US or EU) seem utterly indifferent if not actively applauding.

Criminals must be brought to justice, but if you start killing innocents yourself, and even if you simply kill whoever you please, you are a murderer and a terrorist yourself. You have become what you fight.

Also, it is a matter of time before everybody else use drones - as and when they please. Law and order goes out the back way.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 4:37:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Also, it is a matter of time before everybody else use drones - as and when they please. Law and order goes out the back way.

It's also only a matter of time before the generation of kids who've seen innocent family members killed will become terrorists themselves.

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(in reply to egern)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 5:11:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

I am so glad to see someone standing up to this problem - it is murder, as you say. But people (US or EU) seem utterly indifferent if not actively applauding.

Criminals must be brought to justice, but if you start killing innocents yourself, and even if you simply kill whoever you please, you are a murderer and a terrorist yourself. You have become what you fight.

Also, it is a matter of time before everybody else use drones - as and when they please. Law and order goes out the back way.

Sadly, Iran is already using them and shooting ours down. Count Germany who will have them armed as is ours. Also Lebanon's Hizbullah that was camera only...for now.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is now regarded as among leading countries manufacturing advanced drones.

“The country has gained access to advanced radar system that can divert enemies' drones from their main courses,” General Salami said.

Hell of a future hey ?

(in reply to egern)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 5:30:45 PM

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May I point out that "collateral damage and casualties" have been an acceptable part of modern warfare?

The percentage of civilian casualties, wounded and killed is figured into the plan before the first shot or bomb is fired or shot.

Think of the term "Precision Daylight Bombing" first used in WW2 by General Eaker, commander of the 8th Air Force. What that meant was when the bombardier in the lead bomber had the target in his bombsite, he dropped his bombs, and every plane in the formation dropped theirs. Bomb assessment consider 20 to30% bombs on target good results.

The rest of the bombs? Well the Germans did not build war industries in rural farmland, no ready supply of workers.

This is a bomb drop picture of the city of Schwienfurt where the Germans made most of their ball bearings.

There are two main areas of bomb impacts, however you will notice a good percentage striking well outside the primary target areas. Those strikes are in civilian areas.

_____________________________

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(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 5:49:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Sadly, Iran is already using them and shooting ours down. Count Germany who will have them armed as is ours. Also Lebanon's Hizbullah that was camera only...for now.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is now regarded as among leading countries manufacturing advanced drones.

“The country has gained access to advanced radar system that can divert enemies' drones from their main courses,” General Salami said.

Hell of a future hey ?

Hezbollah does not belong to any country though they are largely supplied and financed from the IRI. They are also active in Syria at the moment. Do some research on Hezbollah sometime if you are ever inclined.

I am interested...do you think other countries should not have drones? Or drones capable of carrying out strikes? Is it wrong for other nations to divert US drones and not be spied on?

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 6:48:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
May I point out that "collateral damage and casualties" have been an acceptable part of modern warfare?

Actually, British bombing in WW2 has been a bone of contention here ever since. Arguments still rage about the lack of medals given to bomber aircrew. I think it's fair to say that the UK has never looked back at bombing policy then with unalloyed pride. But such nearly-indiscriminate bombing was accepted, if not entirely condoned, during WW2 in a way that can't be the case in e.g. Afghanistan - not least because such conflicts aren't supposed to be between two entire nations. The average German citizen was much more of an inherently 'guilty party' in British eyes during WW2. That's not supposed to be true of the average Afghan.

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(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 7:00:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Sadly, Iran is already using them and shooting ours down. Count Germany who will have them armed as is ours. Also Lebanon's Hizbullah that was camera only...for now.
The Islamic Republic of Iran is now regarded as among leading countries manufacturing advanced drones.
“The country has gained access to advanced radar system that can divert enemies' drones from their main courses,” General Salami said.
Hell of a future hey ?

Hezbollah does not belong to any country though they are largely supplied and financed from the IRI. They are also active in Syria at the moment. Do some research on Hezbollah sometime if you are ever inclined.
I am interested...do you think other countries should not have drones? Or drones capable of carrying out strikes? Is it wrong for other nations to divert US drones and not be spied on?

I don't want any other countries to have drones. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed. Just that I don't want them to have them. I would much rather the US be the only ones with advanced drones. Any country that refers to us as "The Great Satan" or is actively working to tear us down, is a country I don't want to have advanced drones. But, you know, I'm sure every person could say something similar wanting theirs to be the only ones with advanced drones.

It's a damn scary proposition to think that the drone that just buzzed over my head wasn't being controlled by a "friendly" force. Once the tech goes widespread that scrambles signals and/or takes control of a "foreign" drone, they'll be less reliable. Even thinking about it gets damn scary.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Switcheroo1983)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 7:54:23 PM

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

I don't want any other countries to have drones. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed. Just that I don't want them to have them. I would much rather the US be the only ones with advanced drones. Any country that refers to us as "The Great Satan" or is actively working to tear us down, is a country I don't want to have advanced drones. But, you know, I'm sure every person could say something similar wanting theirs to be the only ones with advanced drones.

Understandable position. The IRI is not to be trusted, drones or not. I do feel, though, that they have the right to misdirect/shoot down drones illegally violating their airspace, as should all countries.

quote:

It's a damn scary proposition to think that the drone that just buzzed over my head wasn't being controlled by a "friendly" force. Once the tech goes widespread that scrambles signals and/or takes control of a "foreign" drone, they'll be less reliable. Even thinking about it gets damn scary.

That is how others in other nations feel at this exact moment yet the US government condones such fear. Drones are a frightening thing, regardless of who controls them.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 7:57:33 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

May I point out that "collateral damage and casualties" have been an acceptable part of modern warfare?

The percentage of civilian casualties, wounded and killed is figured into the plan before the first shot or bomb is fired or shot.

Think of the term "Precision Daylight Bombing" first used in WW2 by General Eaker, commander of the 8th Air Force. What that meant was when the bombardier in the lead bomber had the target in his bombsite, he dropped his bombs, and every plane in the formation dropped theirs. Bomb assessment consider 20 to30% bombs on target good results.

How about Sherman's March to the Sea? Do people really think that no civilians were harmed in that?

Too modern?

How about Carthage? Especially in this type of discussion, Carthage becomes interesting.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 7:58:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

How about Sherman's March to the Sea? Do people really think that no civilians were harmed in that?

Too modern?

How about Carthage? Especially in this type of discussion, Carthage becomes interesting.

Good points. As to Carthage, do you mean it's sack during the Third Punic War, when Carthago Nova was sacked, or it's third and final sack in the 7th Century?

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 8:49:14 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

How about Sherman's March to the Sea? Do people really think that no civilians were harmed in that?

Too modern?

How about Carthage? Especially in this type of discussion, Carthage becomes interesting.

Good points. As to Carthage, do you mean it's sack during the Third Punic War, when Carthago Nova was sacked, or it's third and final sack in the 7th Century?

Both.

For the first, the Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem delendam esse. (Cato the Elder) And it was.

For the second, that is what makes it interesting. The 'Religion of Peace', destroyed Carthage (it became Tunis later). Hmm. What about the children? What about the civilians?

Yeah, I know that civilians get killed in war. Would it be better if Stalin, Mao, and Hitler had been able to continue? It must really suck to be a child killed by one of these drone strikes. But is that child going to be one of the ones that grows up to the throw lye in the faces of girls who attend school (and shoot them in the head if they’re outspoken about the right of girls to an education)?

At some point a stand must be taken. If these parents are upset about the "innocent" being killed, then perhaps they should have taken care of the problem themselves. If they have not, then they are accessories to terrorism. I have a hard time feeling sorry for them.

No one demands that the terrorists, tyrants, and suicide bombers think of others. I see no reason to take special consideration either.

Yep. War is hell. One of our generals once said, "It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." (Robert E. Lee, Battle of Fredericksburg)

I will also note that things can be much worse without war, as terrible as it may be. Politically caused famines kill an awful lot of civilians. Many, many, more than war does.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Switcheroo1983)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 9:40:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983
ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

I don't want any other countries to have drones. Now, I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed. Just that I don't want them to have them. I would much rather the US be the only ones with advanced drones. Any country that refers to us as "The Great Satan" or is actively working to tear us down, is a country I don't want to have advanced drones. But, you know, I'm sure every person could say something similar wanting theirs to be the only ones with advanced drones.

Understandable position. The IRI is not to be trusted, drones or not. I do feel, though, that they have the right to misdirect/shoot down drones illegally violating their airspace, as should all countries.

Every country has the right to pursue National Security in defense of it's sovereignty. We agree on it. But, I must add, that I don't like that they can.

quote:

quote:

It's a damn scary proposition to think that the drone that just buzzed over my head wasn't being controlled by a "friendly" force. Once the tech goes widespread that scrambles signals and/or takes control of a "foreign" drone, they'll be less reliable. Even thinking about it gets damn scary.

That is how others in other nations feel at this exact moment yet the US government condones such fear. Drones are a frightening thing, regardless of who controls them.

While I agree that they are frightening things, they aren't as frightening if they are being controlled by friendly forces. I don't know how far away, if there even is a limit, the "pilot" can be to effectively use the drone. I don't know what kind of range the drones have, either. According to the wiki, Iran's Karrar has a range of 1000km. And, that is most likely enough to fly some low-altitude mission from international waters into the US. Though not likely of significant range to reach my area, it's still too damn close.

Yes, I think drone use outside of war is more akin to terrorism than anything., especially if it's a civilian area.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Switcheroo1983)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/6/2013 10:14:09 PM

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I don't want any other countries to have drones.

That is what the US said about the atomic bomb. It is estimated that in 2012 there were some 17,000 nuclear warheads in the world. Currently there are only 5 Countries that have signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty. 3 Countries are known to have successfully detonated a nuclear weapon, there is another country that may have detonated a nuclear weapon successfully. There are about an additonal 23 Countries believed to have weapons of mass destruction.

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 2/6/2013 10:19:31 PM >

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 6:03:44 AM

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To Aylee -

Yes, when Carthage was sacked it's final and pitiful time (it's glory was gone, poor Carthage), it was by an Islamic force. There is no denying this. In no way do I condone the slaughter of innocents.

Yes, those children might grow up to be terrorists, just as all White, male children may grow up to be sex offenders (majority of people on the Sex Offender Registry are White males). See where I'm going? We can go on-and-on until there is no one left on the planet, what does it solve?

Tell that to the parents already killed or buried under rubble by bulldozers. But yes, the job of a parents extends world wide, not just here. Contrary to popular belief, most parents in the region are against their children being involved in such things. Not everyone wants to raise a Martyr.

Yes, people do demand that. The UN, weak as it is, for instance, as well as world governments.

When you say "political famines", are you familiar with the Holodomor in Ukraine? It is a favorite subject of mine, as it is forgotten or ignored, and it should not be, as it was horrific and evil.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 7:49:10 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Has America gone rogue ? Has America forsaken its creed of equality before the eyes of the law, habeus corpus and due process ? Yes and about 2003 under Bush. Obama doing what he needs to do to stay alive...has and will continue all of the major neocon policies.

There are so many now that claim the US drones have killed over 200 Pakistani children, I am beginning to believe them. The military and Condoleezza Rice's cold dismissal of dead Iraqi children seem not to care at all and reinforce their total disregard and my new beliefs about our govt.

Is this us and will it not simply be expanded ? Will the people of the US stand up and speak out against these extra-judicial killings ?

When will the people stand up against drone attacks and killing, when they are overhead...shooting at us ?

So... If we staged a ramps-down invasion of, say, Pakistan, and went in there with tanks and artillery to kill terrorists, you'd likely applaud your fool head off. Tragically innocents get killed in wartime. Drone strikes at least work, which is more than can be said for Bush's massive, costly efforts. Yes, they are imperfect, yes innocents get caught in the crossfire, but until Al Qaida agrees to line up in an open field to be gunned down, or YOU invent a smart bullet that only hits people who hate Americans, they're the only realistic tool we have.

Get a life!

(in reply to MrRodgers)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 9:49:02 AM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Switcheroo1983

When you say "political famines", are you familiar with the Holodomor in Ukraine? It is a favorite subject of mine, as it is forgotten or ignored, and it should not be, as it was horrific and evil.

Yes, I am a bit familiar with it. When I wrote that sentence I was specifically thinking of the one coming in Egypt soon.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Switcheroo1983)

RE: Collateral murder - 2/7/2013 10:07:43 AM

kdsub

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Stop killing Americans, and their children, or supporting those that do then we can stop killing theirs. Until that day comes I am all for drones that limit the danger to our sons and daughters.

The above said I do want our armed forces to do their best to limit civilian casualties.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MrRodgers)

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