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RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:02:45 PM

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quote:

He's even questioned, quite frequently, on this very board whether or not their relationship is even consensual in nature atm, because he's pretty convinced she's not capable of either giving or withdrawing consent to him.

Hmm, I never saw this side. I thought he always made it very clear he doesn't bulldoze Carol into things. He exercises patience and work on her slowly to persuade her to see things the way he does. This is all essential skills of a vanilla husband to keep the peace in his household. That's really treating her with a lot of respect.
It's not "Screw you, do it now, whether you like or not!", which of course you and tazzy had doms like that, apparently, but as you're not complaining of abuse, and you're happy with that treatment, I'm happy for you.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 6/6/2013 8:03:21 PM >

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:04:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Cold-brewed is quick, brainless, highly precise, and depending on your tastes it's the best coffee you'll ever get. It also has substantially less caffeine in it (for LW). You basically pour some in a mug and water down to taste (it starts concentrated), heat it in a microwave to temp and serve. Makes as many cups as you need in advance. It's just not cool if you like the bitter oils and the burnt sugars that you get in hot brew.

Dude, I'm trying to simplify the process by having our coffeemaker hooked up directly to the water line and auto-fill and you're suggesting something that has more steps, need a special coarse grind (so now I'm grinding coffee too), has less caffeine so I have to make more of it, and on top of all that needs to be microwaved by the cup as well???

You are SO not being understanding of my issues, I thought you where one of the nice guys here.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:06:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Jeff married Carol in a vanilla setting, and then one day, years later, decided "from now on you're my slave, because I said so" without her having any understanding whatsoever of what that entailed. Carol wasn't -and still isn't from what I understand- kinky at all, and is basically not given a choice in the matter, because Jeff brainwashed her to the point she's not really capable of saying no to him.

Not a fair portrayal. Let me try to correct it.

We'd run into this whole M/s thing online in SL. Carol brought up the idea of being my sex slave (eg: bottom). I had no interest in that and countered with "24/7 TPE slave". She did think about that and probably could have refused... maybe... it's unclear. I wasn't really pushing the issue so refusal was possible. I don't think she could have refused me at that point had I pushed but I didn't. She thought about my counter-offer and decided to give it a whirl and a dynamic was born.

And in truth, given the actual context of love and warmth in our marriage even given some deep rifts at that time there is just no reasonable conclusion that can be made for "I forced her". Nor is there now actually. I don't think what happens between us is consensual but I don't think it's forced either. I think both of those two concepts apply more to the adversarial model of M/s than to whatever we have done.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:06:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Real slavery is real misery.

Show me any definition, anywhere, in any language, that supports that view.

There where tons of people kept even as chattel slaves that where happy and treated far better than they would have been unowned.

I take it you've never taken Latin then?

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:08:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Not a fair portrayal. Let me try to correct it.

Ah, my apologies. Thanks for the updated info (seeing that I rather forced you into being my nonconsensual example).

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:12:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
The fact that he won't actually do stuff to her that she would consider abusive is circumstantial.

You know that's an interesting thought... "that she would consider abusive". I gotta tell you I have already changed her mind in several areas such that things which would have previously been seen as "abusive" now would not be. If I can do that then... uh ... when exactly is she going to come to this conclusion of abuse? But you're right. I won't do things she considers abusive lol.

Hey, Greta is the one saying it can't be abuse if it's not considered abuse by the person it's done to.

So you're in the clear, you can stop worrying about your ethics and do whatever you want to/with Carol... just remember my offer in case you're in need of a female top.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to JeffBC)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:27:52 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Real slavery is real misery.

Hardly. People tend to exit real misery. It's tolerable conditions that keep them on their knees.

Real slavery is a state of mind, and it's got precisely fuck-all to do with misery.

It's not incompatible with misery, mind you, but the two are distinct.

quote:

The issue here, we got folks [...] getting offended that I say it's not okay what this girl is going through [...]

The issue here is, you're saying X isn't okay, when a bunch of people here think X is great sometimes, and a bunch of people here have been through X and found it to their liking. Of course, slavery can be horrible. And it can be great. And it can be everything in between. It comes down to who you are, and who owns you.

That's kind of a defining element of slavery: being at the mercy of whoever owns you...

... i.e. not having a say in whether it will be great or horrible.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:38:42 PM

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quote:

Hey, Greta is the one saying it can't be abuse if it's not considered abuse by the person it's done to.

Thank you, that's the gist of it. And that is the core of BDSM.
I mean, seriously, if you turn up with bruises with beatings that just gave you crazy orgasmic pleasure like I do. My x-dom could have been thrown in jail, even if I said it was consensual. All I need was my parents noticing them. (And in a very weird way, my dad has this negative feeling about my x-dom that he was a wife beater and kept telling me, his afraid he'll beat me if I married him)
So it's not abuse when I say it's not abuse. Not what is normally seen as abuse.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 6/6/2013 8:41:17 PM >

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:44:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

Hey, Greta is the one saying it can't be abuse if it's not considered abuse by the person it's done to.

Thank you, that's the gist of it.

So if I rape and beat a mentally disabled person who doesn't understand that something bad is being done to them, it's not abuse?

And it's also not possible to abuse somebody who has been raised to think that such a thing is normal?

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:44:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Real slavery is real misery.

If slavery wasn't misery, why did we abolish on it and insist on giving people choices?
Slavery is anti-free will.
We had to give people free will to give them the choice to go into slavery if they wanted to.
But real slavery.... where your choice is taken away from you from birth, is nothing positive about that.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 6/6/2013 8:48:24 PM >

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:51:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Real slavery is real misery.

If slavery wasn't misery, why did we abolish on it and insist on giving people choices?

What kind of twisted assumption is that?

The fact that people think slavery is bad, because -among other reasons- it often increases the likelihood of abuse potentially, doesn't mean that slavery equals abuse.

Your claim that real slavery equals real misery can be easily invalidated by the countless accounts of legal chattel slaves that weren't miserable at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Slavery is anti-free will.
We had to give people free will to give them the choice to go into slavery if they wanted to.
But real slavery.... where your choice is taken away from you from birth, is nothing positive about that.

First of all, the majority of legal slaves through human history weren't born into slavery.

Secondly, legal slavery isn't anti-free will. It's anti-legal choice.
Whether or not a legal slave has free will or not is an internal matter, the thing that defines their slavery is the fact that their external choices are limited by a force external to themselves that if far greater than what is commonly imposed on a "free" population.

Third, voluntary TPE IE slavery, of the type we've been discussing, is more anti-free will than legal slavery has every been.
IE TPE relationship deliberately set out to remove a person's ability to revoke consent, and think for themselves.
Legal, or captive slavery on the other hand, very seldom attempts to remove a person's ability to think for themselves by brainwashing. It's most commonly only centered around removing the opportunity to act upon internally made choices and desires, like the desire to leave.

If anti-free will stuff is what you're concerned about, you should be far more concerned about consensual IE TPE slaves than about legal or captive slaves.

A legal, or a captive slave usually retains enough free will to run at the first attractive enough opportunity that presents itself, IE TPE slaves are deliberately conditioned to no longer be capable of running even if the best of opportunities presents itself.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 6/6/2013 8:59:47 PM >

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:51:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
So if I rape and beat a mentally disabled person who doesn't understand that something bad is being done to them, it's not abuse?

If a person is incapable of making decisions, then of course it's abuse, because it's like beating an animal. It is abuse. You can't verify if consent is given or not.

quote:

And it's also not possible to abuse somebody who has been raised to think that such a thing is normal?

If they were raised to think such thing is normal, then, it's not gonna be abusive in their world, then yea, it's not abuse.
In my culture, caning children, even to leave bruises is the norm. I personally think it's abusive, but the children who got caned are grateful for being caned. They always say, I deserved it, to prevent me from being spoilt. So I respect their feelings to the matter.

Isn't this how we run the world? Take vagina mutilation for example, normal stuffs for some cultures, and we don't interfere or consider it a crime, because we have to respect what is normal in their lives and not try to instill our values into their.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 6/6/2013 8:53:33 PM >

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 8:55:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
The fact that people think slavery is bad, because -among other reasons- it often increases the likelihood of abuse potentially, doesn't mean that slavery equals abuse.

This is like the guns don't kill people, people kill people argument. I come from a gunless country where i feel safe, so I have to agree to disagree.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:10:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
So if I rape and beat a mentally disabled person who doesn't understand that something bad is being done to them, it's not abuse?

If a person is incapable of making decisions, then of course it's abuse, because it's like beating an animal. It is abuse. You can't verify if consent is given or not.

IE TPE slaves are deliberately brainwashed to not longer be able to consent or remove consent.

Jeff isn't sure if Carol is capable of consent.

Abusive or not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

And it's also not possible to abuse somebody who has been raised to think that such a thing is normal?

If they were raised to think such thing is normal, then, it's not gonna be abusive in their world, then yea, it's not abuse.
In my culture, caning children, even to leave bruises is the norm. I personally think it's abusive, but the children who got caned are grateful for being caned. They always say, I deserved it, to prevent me from being spoilt. So I respect their feelings to the matter.

They always say?

Are you insane?

Do I need to go online and pull up accounts of them saying the exact opposite of that? There have been cases of parents being turned in to CPS for less than that, because the child very well felt abused. Go read up on Waris Dirie and how she felt, her whole life, about her "culturally normal" forced circumcision.

I take it you don't think that child soldiers suffer from abuse then either?

You're the only person I've ever met to have such a distorted view about what is and isn't abuse that you claim that a grown woman entering into a consensual M/s relationship having stuff turn out a little different than expected, but with tons of opportunities to get out IS abused, while the nonconsensual mutilation of pre-pubescent girls is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Isn't this how we run the world? Take vagina mutilation for example, normal stuffs for some cultures, and we don't interfere or consider it a crime, because we have to respect what is normal in their lives and not try to instill our values into their.

Regardless of the fact that IF that's indeed how the world is run (which I'm not too sure of) that doesn't imply that it's correct that the world is ran that way...

We do very much interfere. The UN and other organizations have been trying to abolish genital mutilation for decades.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:12:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Dude, I'm trying to simplify the process by having our coffeemaker hooked up directly to the water line and auto-fill and you're suggesting something that has more steps, need a special coarse grind (so now I'm grinding coffee too), has less caffeine so I have to make more of it, and on top of all that needs to be microwaved by the cup as well???

Sounds like you need an IV, just put the caffeine directly into the bloodstream.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:13:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Dude, I'm trying to simplify the process by having our coffeemaker hooked up directly to the water line and auto-fill and you're suggesting something that has more steps, need a special coarse grind (so now I'm grinding coffee too), has less caffeine so I have to make more of it, and on top of all that needs to be microwaved by the cup as well???

Sounds like you need an IV, just put the caffeine directly into the bloodstream.

That would be awesome if he wasn't so squeamish about needles.

Besides, considering that he claims I'm a bigger sadist than he is (with reason I may add) he never lets me get within 4 paces of him with implements that may be used for topping.

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to DesFIP)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:18:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
. You are not even allowed to travel out without a man.
That's my point.

What's so wrong about that? Personally I think that sounds nice.

But I guess I'm the abused type. What do I know.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to Greta75)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:19:29 PM

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Nothing... shhhh.. we are the oppressed.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:20:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
. You are not even allowed to travel out without a man.
That's my point.

What's so wrong about that? Personally I think that sounds nice.

But I guess I'm the abused type. What do I know.

Yeah especially seeing that Saudi women can't actually be abused by not being permitted freedoms, seeing that they where brought up in a culture where this is normal...

_____________________________

I can be your whore
I am the dirt you created
I am your sinner
And your whore
But let me tell you something baby
You love me for everything you hate me for

(in reply to littlewonder)

RE: Why A Slave? - 6/6/2013 9:22:13 PM

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I mean, golly, Im not allowed my own phone... opps... or on line... oops... or to have friends... opps... or to talk to anyone... opps.... damn, I love my oppression!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to UllrsIshtar)

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