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njlauren

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If one subscribes to the orthodox meanings of sex and gender in this context - ie. sex refers to physiological/biological differences between the sexes, and gender refers to the social psychological and behavioural differences - then practically by definition all gendered behaviour is learned.

That isn't a good definition, it is one that has been blown out the window

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GotSteel
I'm still trying to find out what difference (if any) there is between expression and roleplay.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Originally, this point arose because I objected to the manner in which one poster was using the term 'roleplay' to denigrate TGs. As this poster has since admitted there are shortcomings in his understanding of the term 'roleplay':

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I have one thought when I use the restroom...

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm having trouble with this because if you just wanted to pee the male restroom would also work. As you point out in this other post there's something else going on as well:

No, the male restroom would not work. I look (mostly) like a girl, I act like a girl, I am dressed like a girl. Going into the men's restroom is going to cause more commotion than using the women's. Further, by going in there, I dramatically increase my risk of verbal abuse or physical assault. In the context of my OP regarding that, I was pointing out that trans folk generally have no puerile interest in getting into one restroom or the other - we just want to pee...

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
So yea, I, and a bunch of other folks on the big-ball-o-dirt, are called to the female in all things, including restrooms. Others are called to the male in all things.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel
I'm somebody who isn't called or attracted to restrooms so can you explain this with language that doesn't rely on jargon to the point that it's rendered meaningless in plain English.

Now you are just trolling...

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There's an awful lot of hyper-intellectual stuff borne out of this subject, GS, but - for me, at least - it boils down to the fact that one expresses the stuff that feels as though it's at a deeper level and can't be consciously controlled, whereas one 'roleplays' the stuff that might, in theory at least, be consciously controlled.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: njlauren
(ie a girl is xy, boy xx).....

other way around:

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ORIGINAL: njlauren
Ones sex is determined by your chromosomes, that much is true, but beyond that it is complicated as hell. All human fetuses start out as female morphologically, then at an early stage, several months, a hormone bath kicks in and the body differentiates..and there have been babies born that are otherwise normal appearing boys and girls, whose genetics are the opposite (ie a girl is xy, boy xx).....

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
As this poster has since admitted there are shortcomings in his understanding of the term 'roleplay':

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GotSteel
I'm still trying to find out what difference (if any) there is between expression and roleplay.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
further discussion of this particular point seems unnecessary.

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So this is just a general reply. I think all this talk of expression vs. roleplay has gotten a bit out of hand. Suffice it to say that for myself and pretty much every one of the transgendered people I know, simply being able to be your true gender is a pure expression of "self". There is no roleplay because it does not feel in any way put on or false. It feels and for me, is, natural and right. Again, I think you would be hard pressed to find a transperson who would disagree with most of that.

And so, in being ones true gender, most simply want to get on with life, and do so unmolested.

Two years ago, I went to an outdoor hotspring in Colorado. Now, I am not transitioned, nor do I have breasts - that are part of my flesh. But I was arriving and leaving dressed, behaving, and appearing as female. I was really uncomfortable about how to handle where I should change, what I should wear...and of course how/if I would be permitted to even go inside and if there would be any sort of issue with other patrons.

I am not the type of person that can handle just walking into a place and seeing what might happen. So I called in advance. I informed the lady on the phone that I was transgendered, not transitioned, and asked if they might have a private changing area that I could use. She said that yes, they did, and she would be happy to accommodate me and that I was most welcome.

And so we went and for the most part had a lovely experience.

I relate this story because this is one example of how transgendered people live their lives. That constant thinking/worrying/wondering about what someone is going to think, say, or do about you gets really heavy. And you try to NOT live your life like that, but it is nigh impossible to not give it space in your head. At least for me it is... Using facilities of your true gender, or trying to get separate accommodations just so you can feel safe and yet feel like you can actually leave the house and have a life.

Probably, some will say that I should have challenged the conventions and used the women's changing area. You know, they are probably right, but I just could not face it - it was just too heavy, too daunting on the day. When I walked out of the private changing area, I nearly threw up I was so nervous.

I hope people can see that no one in their right mind would live this way unless they were being driven by something that was so deep and authentic it simply could not be denied.

I feel for this child Coy because she is just beginning and already at age 6 she is facing the challenges that society throws up against people who, just to be themselves, have to break through gender barriers. There is no easy answer, no easy path.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Dang, I can't remember the name of this joint. Would you be referring to the place that is down towards Canon City? Adult only and clothing optional?

(I'm about to receive a ton of flack and I'm willing to accept that.)

Honestly, I think you made the right move. If I didn't know you and came into a changing area where you were undressed, I'm going to admit that My first thought isn't going to be 'oh, that's just a trans* person' and everything is fine. I'm going to think, "there's a naked dude in here and I'm in an enclosed area". If we are talking about the same place, we're talking cement floors, concrete cinder blocks for walls, public address system with music playing, and a design where lockers and wall prevent a straight shot out of the area if I had come in where the benches were.

I'm going to hazard a guess that a large majority of women are going to have the immediate reaction of dangly bits and "women's changing area" don't go together. That's going to raise some concern. Especially if we're talking about a semi-sound preventive space and one attendant for the entire joint who is taking admissions, tending concessions, and overseeing the springs itself for safety reasons.

It can't be completely unreasonable that some women might have the first thought of "do I have to defend Myself" when they come across someone in a male body in a place that they expect to see only female bodies *and* they are in an enclosed environment? I can't sit here and say that I would have felt completely safe or if I wouldn't have at least went to ask the attendant if everything was kosher.

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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Not at all, I'm trying to get you to actually answer my questions.

Here's an analogy maybe that will help. If someone kinky was to explain BDSM to someone who didn't understand it in terms of, a sub is the opposite of a dom and a dom is what a switch is doing when they aren't being a sub, think about how fucking useless that would be to someone who wasn't already familiar with the lifestyle.

In that circumstance saying hey please actually speak English isn't trolling it's an immensely reasonable expectation.

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Also, the term 'roleplay' begs the question: if a man who feels that he is more female underneath is, in fact, simply roleplaying - then, what's the advantage to him? If I could change that particular 'role' that I was 'playing', I'd do it as fast as I possibly could, because it's generally a hard, lonely and pretty unpleasant role to play in today's society. I mean, really, who'd want it, if he had ability to control it, therefore the choice?

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
There's an awful lot of hyper-intellectual stuff borne out of this subject, GS, but - for me, at least - it boils down to the fact that one expresses the stuff that feels as though it's at a deeper level and can't be consciously controlled, whereas one 'roleplays' the stuff that might, in theory at least, be consciously controlled.

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
I am not the type of person that can handle just walking into a place and seeing what might happen. So I called in advance. I informed the lady on the phone that I was transgendered, not transitioned, and asked if they might have a private changing area that I could use. She said that yes, they did, and she would be happy to accommodate me and that I was most welcome.

And so we went and for the most part had a lovely experience.

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Now, I am not transitioned, nor do I have breasts - that are part of my flesh.

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
Suffice it to say that for myself and pretty much every one of the transgendered people I know, simply being able to be your true gender is a pure expression of "self". There is no roleplay because it does not feel in any way put on or false. It feels and for me, is, natural and right.

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ORIGINAL: OttersSwim
LadyP,

Yes, it is the very place. And you know, I agree with you that it is a difficult situation - not just for me, but for anyone I might have encountered if I used the women's changing room. You receive no flack from me, I know it is new and different for a lot of people still, and it is going to take time and a lot more public exposure before it becomes anything but.