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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 10:31:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire

It seems reloading have alot of factors, even the best can reload in about 2.5 second

You're making shit up again. The video at your first link shows 6 shots fired, reload, and 6 more in 2.5 second TOTAL.

And that was with a revolver!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/9/2013 10:41:49 AM >

(in reply to Nosathro)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 10:53:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The Giffords attack
The Long Island Railroad attack
The Thurston High School attack

Well damn, score Ken on the reloading bit. But I notice something else interesting here in two of the cases.

During the next three minutes, Ferguson killed six people and injured another 19... Ferguson had emptied two 15-round magazines during the shooting. While reloading his third magazine somebody yelled, "Grab him!"

This illustrates that the reloading factor offers a rather poor advantage to the victims, even in a crowded subway car where people are presumably close enough to risk it.

Kinkel fired a total of 50 rounds, accumulating 37 hits, and two fatalities. When Kinkel's rifle ran out of ammunition and he began to reload, wounded student Jacob Ryker tackled him, assisted by several other students. Kinkel drew the Glock and fired one shot before he was disarmed, injuring Ryker again as well as another student.

So let's review: 19 injured and 6 dead in the first example, 2 dead and 37 injured in the second, all unarmed, all helpless to do anything except watch the horror unfold, because schools are "gun-free" zones and getting a carry permit in New York City is next to impossible. Even in the Gifford case, the shooting was only stopped because the klutz dropped the mag!

Yet we have people seriously proposing - with a perfectly straight face - limiting magazine capacity as an intelligent response. I mean seriously, in my opinion some people have such a powerful aversion to guns that it impairs their contact with reality.

K.

So you tried to call me a liar and got caught now you're trying to handwave away the facts.

You seem to be trying to shoehorn in universal carry as a panacea. Anyone with any actual knowledge of guns would know that it is a very bad idea.

However, as the actual facts prove, limiting magazine capacity is a good idea to at least limit the carnage.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 11:08:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So you tried to call me a liar and got caught now you're trying to handwave away the facts.

You're projecting again. Calling people liars is your tactic. A search for the word "liar" with your nick as the author brings up two pages of results.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

However, as the actual facts prove, limiting magazine capacity is a good idea to at least limit the carnage.

I am gratified by your willingness to validate my observation that some people's aversion to guns impairs their connection with reality.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 11:24:24 AM

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So if you weren't calling me a liar what were you doing here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire, how about documenting this claim with a few examples. Note that "few" mean more than one.

K.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 11:26:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if you weren't calling me a liar what were you doing here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire, how about documenting this claim with a few examples. Note that "few" mean more than one.

K.

They're not clips K. They are magazines.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 11:47:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

They're not clips K. They are magazines.

Right you are. My bad. I've been calling them that for so long it's a habit.

K.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 11:53:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if you weren't calling me a liar what were you doing here?

I was saying that I think you're mistaken. And I still think so. Having to wait for a reload is a lousy solution, as your examples (which are far from being "many") undeniably show.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 1:29:03 PM

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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Even in the Gifford case, the shooting was only stopped because the klutz dropped the mag!

K.[/font][/size]

Loughner had a 33-round magazine, if the magazine held only say 8 rounds, think that many would have been saved and Loughner captured sooner, when he tried to load.

I was not making shit up, I was showing that a trained person with lots of practice could reload in a short time, even with a revolver. So just how many people do this sort of training, I doubt the average does this. As ususal when something another shows that contradicts you narrow view, you resort to personal attacks.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 1:30:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if you weren't calling me a liar what were you doing here?

I was saying that I think you're mistaken. And I still think so. Having to wait for a reload is a lousy solution, as your examples (which are far from being "many") undeniably show.

K.

Actually wait for the other person to reload has been used even in modern war.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 2:51:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

I was not making shit up... As ususal when something another shows that contradicts you narrow view, you resort to personal attacks.

Yes you were. You invented a totally false claim, contradicted even by one of the links you posted to support it, and getting called on that kind of shit isn't a personal attack, so get used to it.

K.

(in reply to Nosathro)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 3:28:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So if you weren't calling me a liar what were you doing here?

I was saying that I think you're mistaken. And I still think so. Having to wait for a reload is a lousy solution, as your examples (which are far from being "many") undeniably show.

K.

You asked for at least 2 so I gave you 3. There were others.

Since it is a fact that many of these mass shootings were stopped when the gunman was reloading I'm not mistaken. You're just trying to find some way to handwave away the facts.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 4:14:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're just trying to find some way to handwave away the facts.

I think it's more the case that you are bent on waving away the fact that none of the mass shootings you cite, or most of the others, would have ever have become mass shootings if any of the victims or onlookers had been armed.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 5:03:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're just trying to find some way to handwave away the facts.

I think it's more the case that you are bent on waving away the fact that none of the mass shootings you cite, or most of the others, would have ever have become mass shootings if any of the victims or onlookers had been armed.

K.

This fantasy that every random citizen will instantly turn into some sort of Rambo when confronted with a shooter if only he had a firearm is ridiculous. To start with when this sort of event occurs it results in chaos. Shooting into people running in every direction is a pretty good way to increase the body count not decrease it. Secondly a civilian with a drawn weapon at the site of such a shooting will be assumed to be the instigator by first responders, likely getting the "Rambo" killed.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 5:31:43 PM

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What's to stop the bad guy from carrying more than one gun in your fantasy land Ken?

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(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 5:53:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

What's to stop the bad guy from carrying more than one gun in your fantasy land Ken?

You didn't read the links to the events I linked did you?

(in reply to subrob1967)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 6:08:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This fantasy that every random citizen will instantly turn into some sort of Rambo when confronted with a shooter if only he had a firearm is ridiculous.

It sure is. Why do you fantasize that?

More to the point, why do you think the shit in your head is really "out there" in other people's heads?

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 8:09:29 PM

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This fantasy that every random citizen will instantly turn into some sort of Rambo when confronted with a shooter if only he had a firearm is ridiculous.

It sure is. Why do you fantasize that?

More to the point, why do you think the shit in your head is really "out there" in other people's heads?

K.

It sure seems like it is in your head not mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You're just trying to find some way to handwave away the facts.

I think it's more the case that you are bent on waving away the fact that none of the mass shootings you cite, or most of the others, would have ever have become mass shootings if any of the victims or onlookers had been armed.

K.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 8:16:36 PM

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From: Orange County, California
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And the pro gun owners think gun control is a Liberal cause. If Nixion followed through on this, the pro gun owners would line up and woulf hand over their guns to Nixion with a smile.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-enterprise-nixon-wished-total-handgun-ban-175805078.html

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 9:49:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It sure seems like it is in your head not mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think it's more the case that you are bent on waving away the fact that none of the mass shootings you cite, or most of the others, would have ever have become mass shootings if any of the victims or onlookers had been armed.

Unh huh. See? There's nothing in my post about going "Rambo" and "shooting into people running in every direction". Try to get a grip on the fact that when these thoughts pop into your head, they aren't coming from outside somewhere.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 9:54:18 PM

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It sure seems like it is in your head not mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I think it's more the case that you are bent on waving away the fact that none of the mass shootings you cite, or most of the others, would have ever have become mass shootings if any of the victims or onlookers had been armed.

Unh huh. See? There's nothing in my post about going "Rambo" and "shooting into people running in every direction". Try to get a grip on the fact that when these thoughts pop into your head, they aren't coming from outside somewhere.

K.

You're advocating that everyone go armed, how else to guarantee someone armed would be present to stop every shooting spree. I'm simply pointing out the fallacy that everyone who actually knows firearms and their use can see in your position.

(in reply to Kirata)

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