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RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 11:13:45 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Yeh, we were conned. But we didn't do the conning.

OK, I like to think I'm even-handed enough to despise both parties but I find this line more than a bit disingenuous. If you were "conned" then it was with your active cooperation. For anyone who cared to do even the tiniest bit of digging before committing our nation to war the whole thing stank so badly that the con never should've worked.

Tyler Drumheller, the former CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, who disclosed that the agency had received documentary intelligence from Naji Sabri, Saddam’s foreign minister, that Saddam did not have WMD. “We continued to validate him the whole way through,” said Drumheller. “The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.”

Bush actively suppressed the considered opinion of his own intelligence service... and this was well documented at the time. In point of fact it was all rather obvious.

To be fair, I think pretty much the same thing of democrats nowadays. The idea that they are being "conned" by Obama implies active cooperation on their part. Just as with Bush, the mountains of evidence are sitting there in stinking heaps right in front of everyone's eyes. In the end, what Bush did probably pales in comparison to what Obama is doing.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 21

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 11:35:46 AM

TheHeretic

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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Only Liberals are embarrassed by that travisty?

Vince, Vince, Vince... I drop something as easy to disagree with as I did, and you STILL feel a need to not only lie about what I said, but turn it 180 degrees as well?

The libbies and lefties of then, who have become the Obamabots of today, have no embarrassment at all for their role, be it the politicians who were "tricked" by the same President they thought was so stupid, while the douchebag protesters are still proud of all they did to undermine what slim chances there might have been for a diplomatic resolution.

I thought going into Iraq was a lousy idea, but once we were in, we owned it. Of course, I also thought going into Afghanistan was a lousy idea, and too many are perfectly happy to keep their mouths shut while the "Chosen One" keeps shipping more soldiers off to die, and be horribly maimed in the graveyard of empires.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 22

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 11:38:55 AM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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I didn`t know about that before the invasion.

I felt conned.

I didn`t know hussein wasn`t involved.Seemed possible

It was years later that I learned that he was in fact a mortal enemy if the extreme jihadi types and killed them at every chance he could.

Seeing the con artists blaming their victims is pretty grim....especially when so many of those victims are Gold Star families.....disgusting....but par for the retched........

Though I recall reading their open letter to President Clinton years before,I didn`t know of ,or fully get the connection between PNAC ( Project for the New American Century)and the bush admin.......creepy.

It was only after we were getting weekly news about the three or four hundred more American soldiers killed there, that we started to realize we were conned.

Then blood soaked said we "owned" it now and had to stay.What selfserving bull shit.......Jesus help us...that wasn`t true at all....We stayed for the political cover of cowards.

Plamegate,...the "surge"(acknowledgment that they had fucked up to begin with),yellow cake,no armor for months,no bid contracts, and every bit of mismanagement one could commit....

The only ones that really could have stopped this.....the only elected officials powerful enough the put the kibosh on this mess, was McCain and a few other republicans....but they helped and enabled it to coninue for years and years.....

bush wouldn`t even try to end that mess and shirked it off on someone else to do....

"I`m a war president"

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/16/2013 12:04:54 PM >

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Post #: 23

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 12:08:54 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I didn`t know about that before the invasion.
I felt conned.

I have to accept that statement at face value.

In point of fact at the end of my post I'm showing some sympathy. This is why I speak about the red/blue koolaid. it's kind of like in the matrix except for BOTH pills just lead you deeper into the matrix. The only way to get out is to stop downing the pills. I have some hope for politics in America. I think a tiny little bit at a time the more sensible portions of the Tea Party and Occupy are freeing people from "the matrix".

Hell, I voted for Obama the first time... much to my undying shame. As I said, I think he is exponentially worse than Bush.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 24

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 7:30:26 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Bush actively suppressed the considered opinion of his own intelligence service

Yep. And he was wanting to take out Saddam, long before 9/11 gave him the political capital to do so. Whatever may be claimed about him being dumb, he played his cards, and the left, perfectly. The only concession he seems to have made to the protest movement, was using a limited force, instead of an overwhelming one, that could have actually secured the country to begin with.

Could it have been stopped? Maybe, but it certainly wasn't by the Democrat pussies in Congress, nor by the part-time pacifist protestites that rose to the occasion.

And then we owned it, and paid an awful price. The status quo of the ME is permantly altered, and history isn't done writing itself there. We'll just have to wait and see what we get. With a bit of luck, our next CIC will have a bit of sense, to go along with the vision thing. Lord knows the last two haven't.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 25

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 8:36:46 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Vince, Vince, Vince... I drop something as easy to disagree with as I did, and you STILL feel a need to not only lie about what I said, but turn it 180 degrees as well?

I didn't lie about anything, Rich. I only pointed out what you omitted. You do character slander rather loosely, don't you?

quote:

The libbies and lefties of then, who have become the Obamabots of today, have no embarrassment at all for their role, be it the politicians who were "tricked" by the same President they thought was so stupid, while the douchebag protesters are still proud of all they did to undermine what slim chances there might have been for a diplomatic resolution.

WHICH protestors undermined the slim chances for a diplomatic resolution? See what you say later:

" And he was wanting to take out Saddam, long before 9/11 gave him the political capital to do so."

You can't have it both ways, Rich. There was zero chance of a diplomatic resolution. The nuclear arms inspectors came back with a negative report and were slandered by the Bushies.

And if 9/11 was so powerful an ally to Bush how can you lay blame on the Dems alone? America was whipped to a frenzy of revenge. How was it to be stopped? Remember how the celebrity protestors were mocked? Remember how hundreds of thousands marched around the world in protest? Recall the waves of raving patriotism that allowed Bush to get on television and declare the smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud? Just so amazing how you absolve by omission all the cons who urged Bush and Cheney on.

I agree. The Dem politicians were mostly just as guilty. But your attack on them now without acknowledging the culpability of the cons is nothing but your own political bias.

The blame lies primarily with BushCheneyRumsfeldPowellRiceTenet and their underlings.

Don't try to deflect the blame.

quote:

And then we owned it, and paid an awful price. The status quo of the ME is permantly altered, and history isn't done writing itself there

The status quo of the ME is permanently altered? What are you talking about? The ME has been in turmoil since the fall of the Ottoman Empire. There was no status quo. Silly-ass remark.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 26

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 8:55:35 PM

vincentML

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quote:

Yep. And he was wanting to take out Saddam, long before 9/11 gave him the political capital to do so. Whatever may be claimed about him being dumb, he played his cards, and the left, perfectly. The only concession he seems to have made to the protest movement, was using a limited force, instead of an overwhelming one, that could have actually secured the country to begin with.

That wasn't a Bush concession. That was Rumfeld's piss-poor advice.
Shock n Awe . . . biff, bam, thank you, maam . . . they would welcome us as liberators. We don't need so many troops. You fight a war with the army you have. Sheeeet!

And there was dissent from Al Gore and a panel of Generals in 2002:

Former US presidential candidate Al Gore has become the most senior Democrat to criticise President George W Bush's plans to attack Iraq. Mr Gore broke his silence over the issue to accuse the president of squandering the good will of the world towards America. Great nations persevere and then prevail, they do not jump from one unfinished task to another He said war against Saddam Hussein would detract from the main US pursuit of those who killed more than 3,000 Americans on 11 September 2001.
Mr Gore's remarks were similar to those made by a panel of retired four-star American generals testifying before a Senate committee as the US Congress prepares a resolution to authorise attacks on Iraq.
The BBC's Justin Webb says Mr Gore, who has in the past backed the ousting of Saddam Hussein, is now accusing Mr Bush of trying to replace international law with the notion that there is no law but the discretion of the president of the United States. SOURCE

You are just plain wrong in your one sided attack on Liberals... Not surprising.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 27

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 10:13:37 PM

tweakabelle

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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

Owner59
I didn`t know about that before the invasion.
I felt conned.

We are about to find out whether we, the citizens of the West, have learnt anything from the Iraq fiasco.

The powers-that-be are busy laying the ground for a re-run of the Iraq fiasco with only the location changed - to the country next door, Iran. All the other trappings - dubious allegations of WMDs, selective interpretations and applications of international law, the imposition of crippling sanctions to soften up the 'enemy', circulation of false and misleading 'intelligence' to deceive the public, the wholesale demonising of Iran, the neo cons and the Israel lobby braying for 'action' (read: war) and so on - are already in place.

Are the peoples of the West about to be conned again? Are Middle Eastern people about to be slaughtered in their tens of thousands again? Who stands to gain from this new round of war mongering? Will the outcome of this 'war for peace' (sic) be as disastrous as the last one?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/16/2013 10:16:03 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/16/2013 11:06:50 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
I didn't lie about anything, Rich. I only pointed out what you omitted.

Bullshit. You put words in my mouth that never came from there, and then reversed what I was saying. Maybe they've got different words than "lie," for that, where you hang your hat?

Congress gave him authorization, and then gave us excuses. They blamed their own incompetence, as if that absolved them of guilt. (Interesting that that looks to be the actual courtroom defense of the city council, in the Bell trial.

Don't leap to a strawman, that I'm laying the mess all at the liberal's feet, or trying to rehab Bush and Co. Miss the part where I said he exploited the opportunity? Where I said the chances for diplomacy were mighty slim? I hope not, because you cited both.

Unlike those who claim they got tricked by the monkey, I was never a fan of the invasion, simply because it was so easy to see us getting stuck in there. It was however, the behavior of the left prior to, and following that event, that turned me from disdain for the Democrats, to someone who believes they must be directly opposed. The behavior of many of the same people, faced with President Obama toppling a regime of his own with his nifty new remote control exception to the Constitutional limits of his power, only reinforces my belief in that view.

Hussein didn't think we would actually follow through with a full invasion. Apparently he had some intelligence failures of his own going on, or maybe he just shot anybody with news he didn't like. But he could watch CNN.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 29

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 12:25:18 AM

tweakabelle

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It's unsurprising that attempts are being made to blame shift the responsibility for the Iraq fiasco. As the impetus for the next installment of the series 'American Disasters in the Middle East, Part 256' is coming from the same part of the political spectrum as was responsible for the Iraq fiasco, some blame shifting is necessary for those Right wing war mongers to have some vestige of credibility.

But let's be very clear about what happened. The invasion of Iraq was conceived, designed, and executed by Bush's neo-con buddies, who had been calling for Iraq to be invaded for years prior to 9/11. 9/11 provided the excuse but 'regime change' in Iraq was a priority from Day 1 of Bush's Administration. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Firth, Pearlman et al were the main architects of the disaster. Their manipulations are well documented and well known. Their deceit and deceptions are well documented and well known. The entire world knew that Iraq was going to be invaded for a year ahead of the actual invasion. There was always a possibility of a diplomatic resolution but the war mongers arrogantly dismissed it.

The responsibility for the Iraq disaster lies with those who dreamt up, designed and instigated the debacle and pushed through its execution - namely Bush and his neo-con allies. The role of others in this folly - including that of a spineless Congress that endorsed the madness - is secondary and very much secondary at that.

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Post #: 30

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 5:08:00 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
It's unsurprising that attempts are being made to blame shift the responsibility for the Iraq fiasco. As the impetus for the next installment of the series 'American Disasters in the Middle East, Part 256' is coming from the same part of the political spectrum as was responsible for the Iraq fiasco

OK, I readily admit that Carol and I were busy at the time, but wasn't the recent run-up to Iran an Obama gig?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 31

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 5:42:12 AM

farglebargle

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http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/143205/

quote:

Tomgram: Elizabeth de la Vega, Indicting Bush
Posted by Tom Engelhardt at 4:20am, November 29, 2006.
Follow TomDispatch on Twitter @TomDispatch.
Email Print

Think of it as a Tomdispatch.com milestone. This is now the first website to "indict" the President, the Vice President, and their colleagues for defrauding us into war in Iraq. I put that "indict" in quotes because what follows, as former federal prosecutor Elizabeth de la Vega makes clear in her new book United States v. George W. Bush et al., is "not an actual indictment." It can't be, of course; but consider it the second best thing.

De la Vega has, in her career as a prosecutor, prepared numerous fraud indictments and, as she argued in the first excerpt from her book posted at Tomdispatch earlier this week, "A Fraud Worse than Enron," what George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their senior officials committed was a crime, not just in the colloquial sense of the word, but in the legal sense too (and not a victimless crime either). While their crime was of a magnitude that puts even Enron, no less run-of-the-mill fraud cases, to shame, it also has all the elements of a typical, small-time scam.

De la Vega's "hypothetical indictment" of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice, and Colin Powell that you are about to read remains, unfortunately, in the realm of fantasy. But only for now. Until our world comes more fully to grips with the criminal nature of the Bush administration's acts, you can at least turn to the full de la Vega book. A Tomdispatch.com special project, produced in conjunction with Seven Stories Press, a wonderful independent publisher, it's officially published on December 1st (but available now).

You won't want to miss it. It's superbly done and -- though I hesitate to say it, given the nature of the subject matter -- genuinely enjoyable to read because De la Vega turns out to be as skilled a writer as she is a prosecutor, and applies both her talents to the book. So check out the indictment, read the first day of grand jury testimony (which will be posted at this site on Thursday), and in the meantime get the investigative ball rolling by purchasing the book at Amazon.com or, if you want to give all involved a few extra cents, directly at the Seven Stories website. After all, the excerpts at Tomdispatch can only give you a taste of the full case De la Vega makes. This book should be the political stocking-stuffer of the Holiday season. Tom

I challenge anyone to dispute any of the evidence in fact presented in De la Vega's presentation.

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Post #: 32

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 7:09:22 AM

YN

Posts: 699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
OK, I readily admit that Carol and I were busy at the time, but wasn't the recent run-up to Iran an Obama gig?

The "runup" has been going on since the Anglo-American corporate oil puppet Pahlavi was tossed out in 1979.

The Seven Sisters have been after that oil for the last century, and this latest mischief is just the Obama chapter of this ignoble saga.

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Post #: 33

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 7:33:03 AM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
The "runup" has been going on since the Anglo-American corporate oil puppet Pahlavi was tossed out in 1979.

Well, probably true but that doesn't get Mr. "Yes we can" off the hook. And honestly, in this case I doubt that it has much to do with oil. The US desperately NEEDS to go to war with someone. But we don't want it to be an actual war. Iran is as good a pick as any.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to YN)

Post #: 34

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 8:28:11 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The libbies and lefties of then, who have become the Obamabots of today, have no embarrassment at all for their role, be it the politicians who were "tricked" by the same President they thought was so stupid, while the douchebag protesters are still proud of all they did to undermine what slim chances there might have been for a diplomatic resolution.

Really? So who exactly in the GOP was pushing for a diplomatic resolution, rather than using the al Queda demolition programme of 2001 as an excuse to invade a country they'd had their eye on for a decade?

quote:

I thought going into Iraq was a lousy idea, but once we were in, we owned it.

Actually it took two or three years before you lot "owned" it: you waited until the chimp had got his story excusing the invasion straight first, and have since bottled out of even that much.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 35

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 8:53:42 AM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
I didn`t know about that before the invasion.
I felt conned.

I have to accept that statement at face value.

In point of fact at the end of my post I'm showing some sympathy. This is why I speak about the red/blue koolaid. it's kind of like in the matrix except for BOTH pills just lead you deeper into the matrix. The only way to get out is to stop downing the pills. I have some hope for politics in America. I think a tiny little bit at a time the more sensible portions of the Tea Party and Occupy are freeing people from "the matrix".

Hell, I voted for Obama the first time... much to my undying shame. As I said, I think he is exponentially worse than Bush.

Well that`s you and not me.We all can`t be so with it...at least not all the time.

I call them as I see them.I`m no fan of shrub and felt he had stole the election and still do.

I also heard all the narratives,including the one`s that said we were being duped,including interviews and testimony from Scott Ritter.

I also felt like there could be a direct connection with bin-laden,which was not part of the WMD issue or Ritter`s field of expertise.

Who knew at that time there was a House of Saud connection that the city-state of Dubai has laundered the paper money and provided much of the funding for the 9/11 attacks?I didn`t....at that time.

I was aware as most people were of the nay sayers ,but just after being devastated by witnessing the towers fall and the Pentagon attack,it wasn`t hard to believe this was state sponsored.Of course later,we learned that there was no official involvement,not even by the taliban,other than to let them use Afghanistan as a base.

I wish we were as smart as the Canucks, just after the attacks...I also hope they never have to experience such a lose.I personally lost friends that day.

I`m also pleased you have hope for us,being that you`re just one more state of the Unites States of America.

That`s comforting....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 36

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 9:14:50 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Actually it took two or three years before you lot "owned" it: you waited until the chimp had got his story excusing the invasion straight first, and have since bottled out of even that much.

No, Moon, we owned it the minute we crossed the border. Since you guys co-signed on the note, take your issues up with your own government.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 37

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 9:18:02 AM

Moonhead

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Really? So where were those WMDs, then?
You've been whining about being conned into invading Iraq on false information for the last decade, just like the eeevil liberals.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 38

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 9:18:38 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The US desperately NEEDS to go to war with someone. But we don't want it to be an actual war. Iran is as good a pick as any.

Ah, for the good old days, before Reagan won the Cold War. All of the benefits, none of the body bags.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 39

RE: 10th Anniversary of the Iraq War - 3/17/2013 9:24:21 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Really? So where were those WMDs, then?
You've been whining about being conned into invading Iraq on false information for the last decade, just like the eeevil liberals.

Why would you even ask such a stupid question, Moon?

And who the fuck do you have me confused with?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 40

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