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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:19:22 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
So because a Cypriot bank owns more then half a Russian bank, it shows Russians control the Cypriot banks? Please explain this logic.

its only part of tha whole situation. tha banks got so much money pumped in it inflated tha size of tha banks to levels unsustainable by tha state. dont see why tha eu should protect these (usually) wealthy folks. or banks wit very bad legal practice.

quote:

Cyprus’ bank deposits are more than seven times the size of the local economy. The IMF, in particular, is pushing for a program that will not just keep the country afloat but will dramatically scale back the size of a financial system inflated with tens of billions of dollars from offshore investors.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/23/business/cyprus-scrambles-as-ecb-readies-ax/

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 3/24/2013 6:21:07 PM >


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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:27:21 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
So because a Cypriot bank owns more then half a Russian bank, it shows Russians control the Cypriot banks? Please explain this logic.

its only part of tha whole situation. tha banks got so much money pumped in it inflated tha size of tha banks ta levels unsustainable by tha state. dont see why tha eu should protect these (usually) wealthy folks. or banks wit very bad legal practice.

quote:

Cyprus’ bank deposits are more than seven times the size of the local economy. The IMF, in particular, is pushing for a program that will not just keep the country afloat but will dramatically scale back the size of a financial system inflated with tens of billions of dollars from offshore investors.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/23/business/cyprus-scrambles-as-ecb-readies-ax/



If the EU should bail them out is a separate question from that regarding the supposed "Russian control" of the banks. Quite simple, and from all appearances the Cypriot banks appear to have bought the Greek debt (and they are heavily tied to Greece without any doubt) and those bonds they bought became either worthless, or worth far less then their original investments.

However it is apparently bad form to blame a fellow EU member, so in casting for scapegoats, it is a better plan to credit the Russians, in spite of there being little if any evidence.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:38:31 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
So because a Cypriot bank owns more then half a Russian bank, it shows Russians control the Cypriot banks? Please explain this logic.

its only part of tha whole situation. tha banks got so much money pumped in it inflated tha size of tha banks ta levels unsustainable by tha state. dont see why tha eu should protect these (usually) wealthy folks. or banks wit very bad legal practice.

quote:

Cyprus’ bank deposits are more than seven times the size of the local economy. The IMF, in particular, is pushing for a program that will not just keep the country afloat but will dramatically scale back the size of a financial system inflated with tens of billions of dollars from offshore investors.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/23/business/cyprus-scrambles-as-ecb-readies-ax/

If the EU should bail them out is a separate question from that regarding the supposed "Russian control" of the banks. Quite simple, and from all appearances the Cypriot banks appear to have bought the Greek debt (and they are heavily tied to Greece without any doubt) and those bonds they bought became either worthless, or worth far less then their original investments.

However it is apparently bad form to blame a fellow EU member, so in casting for scapegoats, it is a better plan to credit the Russians, in spite of there being little if any evidence.

i find yr denial of russian involvement strange. i have no axe to grind personally, just what i read from a few sources. here is a ft article on what tha russians did in cyprus http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5c96868a-923a-11e2-851f-00144feabdc0.html

quote:

The Russian presence in Cyprus’s banking system is breathtaking. According to most estimates, it stands at about £22bn. It accounts for about a third of all deposits in Cypriot banks. This is larger than the country’s gross domestic product.

The origin of Russia’s vast investment in Cyprus lies in the 1990s, a period known for “gangster capitalism”. Fearing a restoration of an authoritarian regime, the oligarchs who were seizing state assets in the fire sale of the century sought to place their money in tax havens and money laundering centres around the world....

In relative terms, however, Cyprus was by far the most popular. It had everything the Moscow elite loved – Mediterranean sun, tax-haven status and a deeply incurious police force. The attraction of Cyprus’s Eastern Orthodox culture was also important. Most Russians were welcomed with open arms by Cypriots as co-confessionals and generous investors.


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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:44:14 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

The Russian presence in Cyprus’s banking system is breathtaking. According to most estimates, it stands at about £22bn. It accounts for about a third of all deposits in Cypriot banks. This is larger than the country’s gross domestic product.

The origin of Russia’s vast investment in Cyprus lies in the 1990s, a period known for “gangster capitalism”. Fearing a restoration of an authoritarian regime, the oligarchs who were seizing state assets in the fire sale of the century sought to place their money in tax havens and money laundering centres around the world....

In relative terms, however, Cyprus was by far the most popular. It had everything the Moscow elite loved – Mediterranean sun, tax-haven status and a deeply incurious police force. The attraction of Cyprus’s Eastern Orthodox culture was also important. Most Russians were welcomed with open arms by Cypriots as co-confessionals and generous investors.



Do people who put money in a bank control it, or do the board of directors who run the bank?

Again, are the depositors in United States banks responsible for what the banks do, or the conduct those banks engage in' or are the bank officers, and boards of directors bear the responsibility for what the banks do?



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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:52:19 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

The Russian presence in Cyprus’s banking system is breathtaking. According to most estimates, it stands at about £22bn. It accounts for about a third of all deposits in Cypriot banks. This is larger than the country’s gross domestic product.

The origin of Russia’s vast investment in Cyprus lies in the 1990s, a period known for “gangster capitalism”. Fearing a restoration of an authoritarian regime, the oligarchs who were seizing state assets in the fire sale of the century sought to place their money in tax havens and money laundering centres around the world....

In relative terms, however, Cyprus was by far the most popular. It had everything the Moscow elite loved – Mediterranean sun, tax-haven status and a deeply incurious police force. The attraction of Cyprus’s Eastern Orthodox culture was also important. Most Russians were welcomed with open arms by Cypriots as co-confessionals and generous investors.


Do people who put money in a bank control it, or do the board of directors who run the bank?

Again, are the depositors in United States banks responsible for what the banks do, or the conduct those banks engage in' or are the bank officers, and boards of directors bear the responsibility for what the banks do?

you already answered tha question & it was answered. do ya not think its convenient there are sizeable russian investors in cypriot banks & massive exceptional investment from russia?

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 3/24/2013 6:59:40 PM >


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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 6:58:27 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh


you already answered tha question & it was answered. do ya not think its a bit convenient there are sizeable russian investors in cypriot banks & massive exceptional investment from russia?


There are considerable foreign deposits in accounts at Swiss banks, London banks, and United States banks. Never mind places like the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Singapore, Hong Kong and the Bahamas. Does this make these banks foreign controlled, or do you think the countries these banks are located in have the say as to what they do, and how they are run?

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 7:05:45 PM   
Phoenixpower


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Well....now we might create a good bank and a bad bank in cyprus...I think I finally start to understand the game Monopoly 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/small-explosion-cash-machine-cyprus-233905977--finance.html#7ws4Xte

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 7:13:29 PM   
YN


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The news is that the EU has reached a settlement/agreement with Cyprus, the good/bad bank split, and not touching accounts less than 100,000 Euros is apparently part of it.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 7:22:07 PM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
you already answered tha question & it was answered. do ya not think its convenient there are sizeable russian investors in cypriot banks & massive exceptional investment from russia?

There are considerable foreign deposits in accounts at Swiss banks, London banks, and United States banks. Never mind places like the Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Singapore, Hong Kong and the Bahamas. Does this make these banks foreign controlled, or do you think the countries these banks are located in have the say as to what they do, and how they are run?

yup course tha countries have input in how theyre controlled. tha ft article talks bout tha close cultural/political links between russia & cyprus. part of tha problem i reckon.

cyprus has exceptional russian investment. stands out over & above all other foreign investment & is lots more than tha total gdp of cyprus. combined wit significant russian involvement in bank ownership its right to say there is a lotta russian influence in tha banking sector. tha scale of russian money was a part in bringing tha country down wit unsustainable dept. sure tha cayman islands & bermuda have massive foreign investment but they arent in trouble. they dont need eu/imf help. expect haircuts likewise if they did.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 7:40:09 PM   
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http://touch.latimes.com/#story/la-fg-cyprus-deal-20130324/

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 7:53:34 PM   
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http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE92G03I20130325?irpc=932

one from Reuters.

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 8:05:48 PM   
YN


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If the Russians have the control of Cyprus you claim, it is certain they would not tolerate being taxed the 20% fee (as stated the levy will be in the reports) to bail the island out, especially when much of the toxic debt was Cyprus banks buying into Greece.

Then of course which Russians do you think should be prosecuted for engineering this systemic banking failure?

Certainly you can provide some Russian names; and a summary of the things these Russians did demonstrating this control of Cyprus and Cypriot banks; and their known activities to disrupt and destroy the Cypriot financial system.

And then there is the question where foreign investors now fearing putting their funds into the EU where their money can be "taxed" at any whim, it was enough when Iran or Libya could have their money seized, now even non-European citzens can also be summarily "taxed" ant time the EU or its member states need some fast money.

Who would put any funds into a EUrozone bank in such a case?

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 8:26:01 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Certainly you can provide some Russian names; and a summary of the things these Russians did demonstrating this control of Cyprus and Cypriot banks; and their known activities to disrupt and destroy the Cypriot financial system.

Some of that was provided in the article I linked.

I must say I am quite surprised by your vigorous defense of Russians who may have been engaged in criminal activity. Of course, these are only allegations at this time and maybe the truth will never be known but I am not willing to swear that criminal behavior is absent from banking activities. Perhaps you are, YN.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/24/2013 9:06:50 PM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Certainly you can provide some Russian names; and a summary of the things these Russians did demonstrating this control of Cyprus and Cypriot banks; and their known activities to disrupt and destroy the Cypriot financial system.

Some of that was provided in the article I linked.

I must say I am quite surprised by your vigorous defense of Russians who may have been engaged in criminal activity. Of course, these are only allegations at this time and maybe the truth will never be known but I am not willing to swear that criminal behavior is absent from banking activities. Perhaps you are, YN.



The Russians certainly can and do commit various financial crimes, without doubt.

However in this case, the fault was that of the Cypriot banks and regulations/regulators, and their purchase of Greek bonds, which took a 75% "haircut."

And your evidence and others only show that a Russian owns 10% of one bank, and that certain Russians are alleged to (and certainly do) launder money through Cyprus, and others keep their money in Cypriot banks.

Cyprus is claimed to be the third largest source of foreign investment in Russia, does this prove the Cypriots control the Russian banking system?

While it might be convenient for spin doctors and corporate opinion mongers in the Anglo media to blame Russians, the Russians who used Cyprus banks in this case are the ones paying for the EU's failings in Greece and the resulting failings in Cyprus.

Notice you don't see anything in the news reports where any sort of EU or Cypriot governmental official, Interpol, etc. is claiming Russia or Russians actually had anything to do with the crash.

However the effect, which has already began, is that Russians will now ull their billions out of Cyprus, in fact it is alreay in the news that they are looking for, and certain countries are offering to move the Russian bank trade to their lands.

Russians prepare to quit Cyprus

quote:

“The Cypriots killed their country in one day,” says Mr Mikhin, referring to Friday March 15, when President Nicos Anastasides accepted the EU’s proposal to seize €5.8bn in emergency funds from Cyprus’s local and foreign depositors.

What concerns Mr Mikhin, the owner of an international shipping business, is not the levy itself. It will not touch his foreign bank accounts. But he is worried about the destruction of trust in Cyprus’s financial system, a move he says has spooked Russians and Russian business.

“The locals should understand: as soon as the money leaves, the people who go to restaurants, buy cars and buy property leave too. The Cypriots’ means of living will disappear,” he says.

“They are saying we laundered all the money, but they lived on that money for 10 years and forgot about it.”


and


quote:

Worse, he argues, is the hypocrisy with which the EU is treating Cyprus. Most of his clients also do business with Europe’s most prestigious law firms, and are likely to move their business to these same European countries if Cyprus’s financial system collapses.

“Success breeds envy and jealousy. That is what we are facing,” he says angrily. “Out of the big cake of eastern European, Russian business, Cyprus receives 0.5 per cent, 0.6 per cent. And now Europe wants to deprive us of that as well.”

Says another Nicosia-based lawyer: “I don’t understand why it is money laundering when it’s in Cyprus, when in London it’s a perfectly respectable company.”


They may have killed the goose that laid their golden eggs.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 5:26:29 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
If the Russians have the control of Cyprus you claim, it is certain they would not tolerate being taxed the 20% fee (as stated the levy will be in the reports) to bail the island out, especially when much of the toxic debt was Cyprus banks buying into Greece.

Then of course which Russians do you think should be prosecuted for engineering this systemic banking failure?

this is kinda becoming a strawman situation yn coz i never said tha russians controlled cyprus.

also i never said tha russians engineered tha failure. i said some of them contributed to it.

quote:


Certainly you can provide some Russian names; and a summary of the things these Russians did demonstrating this control of Cyprus and Cypriot banks; and their known activities to disrupt and destroy the Cypriot financial system.

i already cited loadsa reliable sources about this very issue to answer ya. you havent cited one so i reckon its time you post up good material to debunk tha claims in the media.

quote:


And then there is the question where foreign investors now fearing putting their funds into the EU where their money can be "taxed" at any whim, it was enough when Iran or Libya could have their money seized, now even non-European citzens can also be summarily "taxed" ant time the EU or its member states need some fast money.

Who would put any funds into a EUrozone bank in such a case?

much of russia is in europe. if russians decide to invest in the eu their monies are subject to tha eu in times of crisis.

do ya think tha ruskies would be just as happy to see all their money go down a big giant hole wit the banks all collapsing?

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 3/25/2013 6:10:15 AM >


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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 8:23:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

However in this case, the fault was that of the Cypriot banks and regulations/regulators, and their purchase of Greek bonds, which took a 75% "haircut."


It’s hard to imagine now, but for more than three decades after World War II financial crises of the kind we’ve lately become so familiar with hardly ever happened. Since 1980, however, the roster has been impressive: Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile in 1982. Sweden and Finland in 1991. Mexico again in 1995. Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and Korea in 1998. Argentina again in 2002. And, of course, the more recent run of disasters: Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus.

What’s the common theme in these episodes? Conventional wisdom blames fiscal profligacy — but in this whole list, that story fits only one country, Greece. Runaway bankers are a better story; they played a role in a number of these crises, from Chile to Sweden to Cyprus. But the best predictor of crisis is large inflows of foreign money: in all but a couple of the cases I just mentioned, the foundation for crisis was laid by a rush of foreign investors into a country, followed by a sudden rush out.
BLAME THE VICTIM

Another day, another banking crisis. What's new? What's to panic about?

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 8:39:04 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

However in this case, the fault was that of the Cypriot banks and regulations/regulators, and their purchase of Greek bonds, which took a 75% "haircut."


It’s hard to imagine now, but for more than three decades after World War II financial crises of the kind we’ve lately become so familiar with hardly ever happened. Since 1980, however, the roster has been impressive: Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile in 1982. Sweden and Finland in 1991. Mexico again in 1995. Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and Korea in 1998. Argentina again in 2002. And, of course, the more recent run of disasters: Iceland, Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus.

What’s the common theme in these episodes? Conventional wisdom blames fiscal profligacy — but in this whole list, that story fits only one country, Greece. Runaway bankers are a better story; they played a role in a number of these crises, from Chile to Sweden to Cyprus. But the best predictor of crisis is large inflows of foreign money: in all but a couple of the cases I just mentioned, the foundation for crisis was laid by a rush of foreign investors into a country, followed by a sudden rush out.
BLAME THE VICTIM

Another day, another banking crisis. What's new? What's to panic about?

Good point. And an excellent analysis by Krugman as the source.

Case after case following the same pattern - free the markets to move money where ever they please followed a few years later by collapse and crisis after the hot money finds a more profitable place to squat.

Each crisis a failure of free markets to do what they are supposed to do? Or would it be more accurate to say the each crisis is a result of markets doing exactly what they are supposed to do? Either way, it's another epic fail by free market economics to deliver results that last, or that serve the interests of the host nation, and definitely not serving the interests of ordinary people in any of those nations.

How much longer are ordinary people going to allow themselves to be enslaved and impoverished by the ridiculous notion of 'free market economics'?

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 9:25:22 AM   
YN


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh

much of russia is in europe. if russians decide to invest in the eu their monies are subject to tha eu in times of crisis.

do ya think tha ruskies would be just as happy to see all their money go down a big giant hole wit the banks all collapsing?



So you blame the victims? The Russians have the BRICs to invest in now, instead of the EU. Certainly they will follow the path of China, and quit buying any EU financial instruments, and quit using the Euro-banks. This being while the EU is begging foreign investment a from across the planet. They cannot QE their way out of the problem, so what then will be their plan to restore financial stability, they can only rob so many offshore investors before none will deal with them.

And Vincent and tweakabelle laid the blame on the appropriate steps, those of the bankers, who doubtless walk off bonus in hand. Do not ignore the complicity of the governments in the countries harboring these banks either.

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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 10:35:04 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

How much longer are ordinary people going to allow themselves to be enslaved and impoverished by the ridiculous notion of 'free market economics'?

So, you are not a fan of the Tea Party. I take it.
We the people became we the losers.

"On February 19, 2009,[65] in a broadcast from the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, CNBC Business News editor Rick Santelli criticized the government plan to refinance mortgages, which had just been announced the day before. He said that those plans were "promoting bad behavior"[66] by "subsidizing losers' mortgages". He suggested holding a tea party for traders to gather and dump the derivatives in the Chicago River on July 1.[67][68][69] A number of the floor traders around him cheered on his proposal, to the amusement of the hosts in the studio. Santelli's "rant" became a viral video after being featured on the Drudge Report"[70] LOSERS


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RE: New Zealand is thinking of going all Cyprus - 3/25/2013 10:37:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And Vincent and tweakabelle laid the blame on the appropriate steps, those of the bankers, who doubtless walk off bonus in hand. Do not ignore the complicity of the governments in the countries harboring these banks either.

Amen, brother YN. Amen!

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