When online fantasy turns fatal. (Full Version)

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absolutchocolat -> When online fantasy turns fatal. (3/27/2013 8:01:52 AM)

Holy shit snacks!

quote:


In August 1996, Lopatka began an online relationship with Bobby Glass, who posted under the screen name Slowhand from his corroded trailer near Lenoir, N.C...

For two months, NanConcentric and Slowhand exchanged dozens of graphic messages about violent sexual fantasies. Police later said a printout of their dirty talk — retrieved from Lopatka’s computer — went on for 870 pages.

Investigators said Lopatka made it clear in the messages that strangulation during sex was her ultimate fantasy. In turn, police said, Glass ‘described in detail how Slowhand was going to sexually torture … and ultimately kill her.”


Kinky online fantasy turns deadly.




LafayetteLady -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (3/27/2013 2:12:04 PM)

I read this one a while ago. Sorry, but, to me, this is mental illness (on both sides). There is a line in the sand where you just need to say, "your fantasies are wrong, not uber kinky, but wrong."




absolutchocolat -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (3/27/2013 4:35:40 PM)

Oh, hell yeah. Sounds like she was depressed and a psycho found a victim. You have to wonder what kind of shit was in those messages they exchanged. *shudders*




LafayetteLady -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (3/27/2013 5:15:47 PM)

Actually, I don't. There are some seriously fucked up people out there.




phoenixasubbie -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/2/2013 4:11:17 PM)

Yes, I read that story some time back as well. I had to wonder perhaps if she didn't believe he would ACTUALLY kill her.... but even if she didn't, the going back and forth for 870+ pages is truly disturbing.

I agree it is mental illness. Lots of it.




Aswad -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/7/2013 6:39:16 AM)

I'm curious why LafayetteLady would assert that such fantasies are inherently wrong. To my mind, the point at which there can be a problem (and usually is) is when people cross the line into reality. Fatal fetishes are part of the education one gets to become a sexologist in the Netherlands, if memory serves.

Sensible people usually confine such fantasies to roleplay. Using the provided example of strangulation, there's plenty of people that thoroughly research how to "safely" perform mock hangings and the like. Who stop short of actual damage, but nonetheless do engage in the fantasy with a willing partner from a position of sanity and informed consent. Such things can go wrong, of course, just like breath play. And there can be accidents, just like with a duelling whip. But overall, the people that engage in this sort of thing usually don't cross over into intentional killing.

We could of course discuss the ones that do cross the line, such as this couple (about whose sanity we know little), but I seem to recall that's iffy in regards to the ToS here. So, confining the discussion to those that stick to fantasies, or play around with those fantasies in role play, I would say there's little reason to fault them for that, and nothing to indicate there's any missing or damaged faculties in those people.

The sort of stigmatizing reactions one commonly sees, however, with this thread as a case in point, can be detrimental to their mental health, of course, and if we extrapolate from certain other non-ToS fields, there's every reason to assume that such stigma is part of the reason some people eventually say "fuck it" and cross the line, often in the worst possible way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: I've probably written more than 870 pages of erotica that covers "unacceptable" fantasies, some of it commissioned.





hlen5 -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/8/2013 1:39:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


The sort of stigmatizing reactions one commonly sees, however, with this thread as a case in point, can be detrimental to their mental health, of course, and if we extrapolate from certain other non-ToS fields, there's every reason to assume that such stigma is part of the reason some people eventually say "fuck it" and cross the line, often in the worst possible way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: I've probably written more than 870 pages of erotica that covers "unacceptable" fantasies, some of it commissioned.




Are you saying that people's attitudes towards the eventual perpetrator's fantasies "makes them do it"?




Aswad -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/8/2013 5:15:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Are you saying that people's attitudes towards the eventual perpetrator's fantasies "makes them do it"?


No, don't be silly.

Nothing's ever that simple, and I don't subscribe to the whole "makes them do it" paradigm.

What I'm saying is, people's attitudes to their desires are one among many contributing factors that help take the perps to the point in their lives when they say "aw, fuck it, I might as well" and go ahead with it. And, obviously, that a majority with the same desires don't end up there, and thus don't deserve to be faced with stigma for desires they'll never act on. Something about innocent until proven guilty and all that.

In the final analysis, they're accountable for their own decisions, and we shouldn't hit them with the shame bat unless they make the wrong decision. I mean, hell, one might as well discriminate against LGBT folks. Oh, wait... nevermind, this is a kink forum, so we're hopefully all on board with the idea that people are born with desires that aren't inherently problematic, and that (most) people are also born with the capacity to make moral decisions for themselves as to what to do/not. Maybe one day, we'll be radical enough to let even the crazy types play with consenting partners, perhaps even allow whips and stuff. Or was that yesteryear?

But, yeah, sure, for some people, I guess the assumption of guilt can lead to deciding to get the "fun" that goes with it.

Sorry if I sound a bit acerbic; that's not really directed at you.

This is just one of my peeves, the way people that used to be discriminated against (and, as I hear it, still are in the USA) completely fail to understand or counteract the same tendencies in themselves that, in others, lead to the discrimination they were themselves subjected to, except directed at some other group with a similar aberration from the norm.

As I see it, we should be discussing ethics and consent, not whether or not people with certain desires are evil, crazy, wrong, possessed by the devil, or in on some "xyz agenda" to make kids in Uganda eat poop (long story involving baptists getting people killed for being gay). Just like, back in the days when BDSM was an illness, people should've been discussing the ethics and consent of WIITWD, rather than what was (obviously and necessarily) wrong with us.

For me, personally, other people's attitudes don't make a bit of difference, one way or the other. I've never cared about norms and laws, stigma vs approval, or any of that crap. I care about my own ethics, and the choices I make based on that. And, yes, I have several desires I don't act on, for the simple reason that it would conflict with my ethics to do so. Despite assertions to the contrary by other posters, here and in other threads, and somewhat iffily as regards the TOS on this board, the state of the art in the psych profession holds that I'm quite sane, ethical, and most of the other nice stuff one might ascribe to a person based on what's in their heads. Should the decision not to act on such desires ever change, you can be damn sure it will have nothing to do with whether people think I'm fucked up or not. Making that assertion about someone based on their desires, rather than their actions, is a surefire way to invalidate the opinion altogether in my eyes, so it won't carry any weight.

But I speak to a lot of people on a regular basis to whom it really is a big deal. Good people that have a firm grip on their secret shame. It takes a lot of time and effort to teach them that there's no shame in what you haven't done. To turn on the lights and see that there really isn't a monster in the closet. To realize that what they've been doing all along- choosing to refrain from unethical behavior- is quite sufficient to be a positive and moral individual.

Some make those peoples' lives more difficult by giving them this needless burden to carry. I've no idea whether that could credibly contribute to some of them one ay acting on the desires they don't indulge in, so I'm definitely not saying attitudes "make them do [anything]". It certainly hasn't yet, for the ones I speak to. But I only speak to the ones that are ethical, with a strong preference for those that are ethical by moral agency rather than default, so I wouldn't know if it's been an influence for any that aren't. Do we really need to find out?

And, more to the point, is it in any way just that we prejudge people with ethical behavior based on what their desires are?

If so, how is it a problem if others prejudge us kinksters based on our own orientations, on which we do act?

That's what I was getting at in my post above.

The part you quoted was just musing on my part, based on some crime trends in Japan and the UK in periods where laws changed temporarily as concerns certain aspects of sexuality. TOS prohibits delving into that here. Anyway, that certain factors can and will influence outcomes on a population level shouldn't be taken as support for any idea that people can individually abscond moral and legal accountability and culpability for their own actions, let alone be degraded into a passive role in which "society made them do it" by other parties. No, I didn't mean to insult them in such a fashion at all.

Mostly, then, as now, I was ranting.

IWYW,
— Aswad.





hazzeleyes -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/8/2013 7:43:51 PM)

I hate to say this, but some people just have a death wish. CRAZY




UllrsIshtar -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/8/2013 7:55:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hazzeleyes

I hate to say this, but some people just have a death wish. CRAZY


Point well made Aswad... [8|]




Aswad -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (4/8/2013 9:32:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Point well made Aswad... [8|]


In all fairness, I've had plenty of help making it. [:D]

IWYW,
— Aswad.





njlauren -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/19/2013 4:27:13 PM)

The problem isn't the fantasies, it is people who can't distinguish the line between fantasy and reality that is the problem. You can fantasize all you want about taking a flamethrower to your boss whom you hate, but you have to know it is a fantasy and that is all it is. There are all kinds of extreme fantasies out there, rape fantasies, cannibalism fantasies, you can find snuff stories and real torture stories and all kinds of things..and they are fantasies, that many might consider twisted or warped.

The problem with this case is that at the very least the girl lost sight of the fact that this was a fantasy and that living out a fantasy with something like this is dangerous. Years ago, when I started going out presenting as Lauren, I would go to TG clubs, because it was a safe space to go to. Most clubs like that have 'admirers', men into CD's and so forth, and it could be kind of cute to have attention shown and such. But occasionally there would be guys that gave me the creeps, who were talking of things like setting up rape fantasies, tying me up and so forth, and I don't think there would be too many people, even if it had turned me on (it didn't, creeped me out) would be telling me to go with the guy and act it out......the problem was how in deep the girl got into it, where the line between fantasy and reality became blurred, and the result was tragic.

I have had extreme fantasies, not quite of this magnitude, of non consensual situations, but that is all they were, fantasies, wouldn't go there, not in a million years..but when the fantasy becomes reality, that is the sickness. Yes, you can role play these things, simulating hanging, or other kinds of things, but that is exactly that, both sides know it is, and trust each other, it isn't the 'real deal' with someone they never met....




sexyred1 -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/19/2013 5:12:50 PM)

I find it interesting that people defend these kind of stories by claiming that if we put down edgy fantasies, where does that leave the rest of us?

Having any kind of fantasy is likely safe, it is kept as one AND/OR you actually KNOW THE PERSON YOU ARE PLAYING WITH.

That is what people miss; acting out fantasies safe, sane and consensually requires trust which can only be gained by KNOWING SOMEONE.

I don't care if there were 8 million pages of emails between this particular couple, they did not know each other enough to engage.




LafayetteLady -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/19/2013 8:54:34 PM)

~Fast Reply~

The reality is that this woman was not simply fantasizing about role playing the act of someone killing her, she was trying to make a fantasy of being killed an actual reality. That is, whether you want to play the "everyone should be free to have their kink" card or not, a mentally ill person.

Studying fatal fantasies to become a sexologist does not necessarily mean that you are learning they are healthy. There certainly have been enough studies done on violent fantasies to find a correlation between them and real violence.

Yes, there are those who are adamant that EVERY kink is ok, and no fantasies, no matter how "unacceptable" they are could possibly be unhealthy, and the whole adults should have the right to consent to whatever they want. But not every fantasy is ok, and there are things that consenting adults should not partake in and if they do, there is something psychologically wrong. Something such as wanting to be killed, and then actively searching for someone to do that.

So, obviously there are people who don't understand that I have no problem drawing a line in the sand and saying that some things are simply bad. I can live with that.




chatterbox24 -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 9:38:01 AM)

Fantasies are just fantasies. Just like food is just food.

But if one is rotten, it can either damn near kill you or kill you. Most people don't chose to eat rotten food, its just nasty. Crazy how some people will keep indulging in an unhealthy fantasy, but wouldn't eat the rotten food. Maybe because the food is right there, you can smell it, see the decay, and it tastes bad, there is a definite warning. Bad fantasies don't have all the bells and whistles.

Got to agree, not all kink is okay.




ChatteParfaitt -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 1:17:30 PM)

This brings up some interesting points for discussion.

The inability to differentiate fantasy from reality is considered a sign of being highly mentally ill. But, I think the plan all along was for him to act out the fantasy and kill her, and she 'consented.' (I admit I have followed through on all the details.)

I think most will agree that killing someone (even if they 'consent') for the sole purpose of fulfilling a sadistic fantasy is wrong. This is what serial killers do, and as a society we abhor them.

It can be argued that someone who is so mentally unstable as to 'consent' to this form of suicide is too unstable to give rational consent. I agree, but YMMV.







Kana -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 1:19:27 PM)

Man, talk about your basic first degree charge. I mean shit, you plan it months in advance...




LafayetteLady -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 4:29:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This brings up some interesting points for discussion.

The inability to differentiate fantasy from reality is considered a sign of being highly mentally ill. But, I think the plan all along was for him to act out the fantasy and kill her, and she 'consented.' (I admit I have followed through on all the details.)

I think most will agree that killing someone (even if they 'consent') for the sole purpose of fulfilling a sadistic fantasy is wrong. This is what serial killers do, and as a society we abhor them.

It can be argued that someone who is so mentally unstable as to 'consent' to this form of suicide is too unstable to give rational consent. I agree, but YMMV.



This is exactly my point. Not ALL fantasies are simply harmless little "mind movies." In this case, both people are so obviously mentally ill, it's difficult NOT to see it.

And I read the same information as you did, Chatte. The plan was to kill her all along. I think he claimed the "oops," only when he realized that her "consenting" to such a thing made little difference.




littlewonder -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 7:00:06 PM)

mmeehh...Imo, if someone wants to die and someone else will help you with that, leave a note saying it was your idea...no charges, no arrests. Then again, I don't feel like I need to protect and baby others. If you wanna do something to yourself, go for it. Just make sure everyone knows it was all your idea.

Now, in this case though, is the person who did the killing, going to try to do this with someone non-consensually? That's the real question.




LafayetteLady -> RE: When online fantasy turns fatal. (5/22/2013 8:33:05 PM)

Assisted suicide is legal in only three states, Oregon, Washington, and Vermont. Montana just has nothing on the books against it so they consider it a viable affirmative defense. The victim lived in Maryland, and her killer in North Carolina. No note, had one been left (or if they attempt to use the emails), are going to be an accepted defense.

Even in states where assisted suicide is legal, it isn't for someone like the victim who is simply depressed. It is for patients who are suffering from some type of terminal illness.

Regardless of that, assisted suicide is never done by strangulation or even a gun. So again, the killer was SOL. Quite frankly, I think he it is appropriate that he died in prison of a heart attack two weeks before he was due to be released.

The article doesn't mention that the woman and her husband and children, which is a good thing. No children should grow up knowing that (or later finding out) about their mother.




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