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Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 8:20:47 AM

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Hey, it's science speaking.

Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery'

Experiments conducted by scientists at the University of Padua in northern Italy have dated the shroud to ancient times, a few centuries before and after the life of Christ.

The tests will revive the debate about the true origins of one of Christianity's most prized but mysterious relics and are likely to be hotly contested by sceptics.

It will be fun watching people who's ~religion is vaunted science get skeptical over this

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 8:26:35 AM

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Yeah, this is just another book, there have been many that date it back to the time of Yeshua ha'Notzri

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 8:32:21 AM

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Come on...we all know the Turin Shroud was a fake from around the 15th century. Ye gads...the Catholic church has so many so called "relics" bursting at the seams. I'm suprised the church hasn't come up with John the Baptist cock in a box somewhere LOL Sorry...but all lies .

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 8:36:28 AM

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You don't date organic items via spectroscopy unless you are looking for pigments that were only used during a discrete period in history (as in detection of forged paintings).
Spectroscopy only gives chemical composition.

Are there any others around with knowledge of chemistry?

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 8:56:09 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

You don't date organic items via spectroscopy unless you are looking for pigments that were only used during a discrete period in history (as in detection of forged paintings).
Spectroscopy only gives chemical composition.

Are there any others around with knowledge of chemistry?

Yeah I'm not seeing how this test was done and the wide range of possible dates is strange. The C-14 tests done some years back were definitive and were not, as the op article claims, of patches.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 11:20:39 AM

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A Summary of the Shroud of Turin Research Project Conclusions

No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image. Ultra Violet and infrared evaluation confirm these studies. Computer image enhancement and analysis by a device known as a VP-8 image analyzer show that the image has unique, three-dimensional information encoded in it.

Microchemical evaluation has indicated no evidence of any spices, oils, or any biochemicals known to be produced by the body in life or in death. It is clear that there has been a direct contact of the Shroud with a body, which explains certain features such as scourge marks, as well as the blood. However, while this type of contact might explain some of the features of the torso, it is totally incapable of explaining the image of the face with the high resolution that has been amply demonstrated by photography.

The basic problem from a scientific point of view is that some explanations which might be tenable from a chemical point of view, are precluded by physics. Contrariwise, certain physical explanations which may be attractive are completely precluded by the chemistry. For an adequate explanation for the image of the Shroud, one must have an explanation which is scientifically sound, from a physical, chemical, biological and medical viewpoint.

At the present, this type of solution does not appear to be obtainable by the best efforts of the members of the Shroud Team. Furthermore, experiments in physics and chemistry with old linen have failed to reproduce adequately the phenomenon presented by the Shroud of Turin. The scientific concensus is that the image was produced by something which resulted in oxidation, dehydration and conjugation of the polysaccharide structure of the microfibrils of the linen itself.

Such changes can be duplicated in the laboratory by certain chemical and physical processes. A similar type of change in linen can be obtained by sulfuric acid or heat. However, there are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately. Thus, the answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery.

We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin. The image is an ongoing mystery and until further chemical studies are made, perhaps by this group of scientists, or perhaps by some scientists in the future, the problem remains unsolved.

Source

K.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 11:33:02 AM

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Thank you k, for posting that info.

I am Catholic, and have to admit that I do not believe the majority of relics at various locations around the world could possibly be real.

As for the shroud, I am not saying it is the image of Jesus, neither am I saying it is not. I would like to believe it is.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 11:42:28 AM

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Well all this proves is people will believe what ever they choose to believe, sort of like religion as a whole.... In the end it is all what people believe, nothing based in fact supported by science, you know the science you count on when you visit the Dr., eat food science says is safe, take drugs science says are safe and will help you..you know all that BS..science so important the GOP wants to end it in grade school because it is challenging their weak beliefs

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 11:46:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The C-14 tests done some years back were definitive and were not, as the op article claims, of patches.

Abstract

In 1988, radiocarbon laboratories at Arizona, Cambridge, and Zurich determined the age of a sample from the Shroud of Turin. They reported that the date of the cloth's production lay between A.D. 1260 and 1390 with 95% confidence. This came as a surprise in view of the technology used to produce the cloth, its chemical composition, and the lack of vanillin in its lignin. The results prompted questions about the validity of the sample.

Preliminary estimates of the kinetics constants for the loss of vanillin from lignin indicate a much older age for the cloth than the radiocarbon analyses. The radiocarbon sampling area is uniquely coated with a yellow–brown plant gum containing dye lakes. Pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry results from the sample area coupled with microscopic and microchemical observations prove that the radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.

~Thermochimica Acta

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2013 12:11:32 PM >

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 12:10:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningStar01

Come on...we all know the Turin Shroud was a fake from around the 15th century.

Except obviously we know no such fucking thing. Have a banana.

K.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 12:16:12 PM

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So, we got an old rag, was it used for asswipe, or what? I mean if the guy died in it, it is gonna have bowel movement all over it.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 12:50:40 PM

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Maybe a stupid question, but is there evidence that explicitly links this to Jesus? I'm not saying there isn't, but if received wisdom was that it was a forgery from the 15th century and it was proven to be closer to 30ish AD, would there not need to be another empirical step to link it to Christianity, or to Jesus specifically? If I accept totally the findings of the article then can I not just say it was a forgery from earlier than the fifteenth century?

also, surely the fact that there isn't any of the oils associated with a body is evidence that Jesus wasn't wrapped in it. It seems like the conclusions extrapolated from the evidence are overblown, which certainly isn't science speaking. The idea about a sample being taken in 1988 from the repaired section of the shroud is pretty cool though, it speaks to the historian in me. Is there definitely evidence it was repaired in the 15th Century?

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 12:55:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Thank you k, for posting that info.

I am Catholic, and have to admit that I do not believe the majority of relics at various locations around the world could possibly be real.

As for the shroud, I am not saying it is the image of Jesus, neither am I saying it is not. I would like to believe it is.

Which I suspect is as good a definition of faith as any. Kudos on that.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:07:09 PM

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there is nothing linking it to anything. The Shroud first appeared in 1390 in France.

As to disputes over the C-14 date.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100125247/the-turin-shroud-is-fake-get-over-it/
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/080325.html

Anyway why would this cloth have an image of his head on it? The bible is explicit that a cloth was wound around his head when he was buried.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:07:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subspaceseven

Well all this proves is people will believe what ever they choose to believe, sort of like religion as a whole.... In the end it is all what people believe, nothing based in fact supported by science, you know the science you count on when you visit the Dr., eat food science says is safe, take drugs science says are safe and will help you..you know all that BS..science so important the GOP wants to end it in grade school because it is challenging their weak beliefs

Would you mind citing where the GOP states they want end it in grade school?? If that is true, I would like to know that. If this is one loony from the GOP spouting off not the organization, then don't bother.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:11:30 PM

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I read the link. I did not see a peer reviewed scientific paper. I saw no "science".

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:14:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As to disputes over the C-14 date.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100125247/the-turin-shroud-is-fake-get-over-it/
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/080325.html

Anyway why would this cloth have an image of his head on it? The bible is explicit that a cloth was wound around his head when he was buried.

However, initial tests show that in normal conditions there is no contamination at the level needed to alter radiocarbon dates at all. The researchers conclude the original radiocarbon date of 14th century is correct, based on current evidence, but they have yet to test whether there is anything in the specific storage conditions of the shroud which might affect this conclusion.

Did they, ummm, "forget" it was in a fire?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway why would this cloth have an image of his head on it? The bible is explicit that a cloth was wound around his head when he was buried.

You're citing the Bible as your definitive source for this detail? Would that be "actual science"?

K.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:25:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As to disputes over the C-14 date.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100125247/the-turin-shroud-is-fake-get-over-it/
http://www.ox.ac.uk/media/news_releases_for_journalists/080325.html

Anyway why would this cloth have an image of his head on it? The bible is explicit that a cloth was wound around his head when he was buried.

However, initial tests show that in normal conditions there is no contamination at the level needed to alter radiocarbon dates at all. The researchers conclude the original radiocarbon date of 14th century is correct, based on current evidence, but they have yet to test whether there is anything in the specific storage conditions of the shroud which might affect this conclusion.

Did they, ummm, "forget" it was in a fire?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Anyway why would this cloth have an image of his head on it? The bible is explicit that a cloth was wound around his head when he was buried.

You're citing the Bible as your definitive source for this detail? Would that be "actual science"?

K.

Thank you Jeff. This is what happens when people learn science in the bible belt. They don't learn science. They learn big words, occasionally used in the correct context. They learn a few ideas, but nothing that gives them a global idea of what science is. It's not a fucking beaker, and it's not a lab coat.

Vincent

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:27:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

is there evidence that explicitly links this to Jesus?

Hard evidence, as in scientific evidence, no. And offhand, I don't have a clue how anyone could come up with any.

K.

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RE: Science rears its head. - 3/28/2013 1:30:24 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

is there evidence that explicitly links this to Jesus?

Hard evidence, as in scientific evidence, no. And offhand, I don't have a clue how anyone could come up with any.

K.

Howz about when he comes back, we ask him for the claim stub?

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