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RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 2:47:31 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
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How does any newbie know what their limits are unless they have some real life experience?  I think that's what she might mean by "few limits."  Maybe she has few because she hasn't tasted enough to know what she feels comfy with and what she doesn't.  I've seen this may times with subs that are newbies.  Granted, there is the chance that a predator may try to take advantage of newness, but being new doesn't make one naive or vulnerable if one listens to their gut feelings.  Hopefully, she will take time to learn more before she puts herself "out there" and finds what she is looking for. 

LeatherBentOne

(in reply to MissDiandSirHugh)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 7:49:00 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I have to agree with Ron and Crappy Dom.  I guess I don't relate to her - Very few limits, one of them being to not submit outside the home?  Odd.  Unless of course she means not submitting to anyone but her Dom.  Maybe I misunderstood.  Another - she wants to be helpless to Master's wishes but not his possession?   I don't relate to being an equal either, but there are other threads on that subject.  I am not equal yet I am listened to more than I have ever been listened to before.  I think she has this notion that subs are just ordered around all the time and nothing more.  There is life within submission.  I am a slave with a career, with a mind, with a heart and spirit, and expected to use them.  In fact part of what I am ordered to do - to think, analyze, critique, explore, be creative, dream, share insight, etc.

My guess is she has received confusing and conflicting advise so far.


I can only ditto this and add that it's very  normal and expected from a novice.  In time the illusions will fall away and hopefully be replaced by a secure reality- full of the screaming tornadoes that life will throw her in addition to the fun hot times right out of her fantasy.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 7:59:06 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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I can only ditto LA and LBO.......she's hungry but being realistically cautious, just trying to find her way and her special place in the whole thing.
( aren't we all...)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 8:10:29 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I have to agree with Ron and Crappy Dom.  I guess I don't relate to her - Very few limits, one of them being to not submit outside the home?  Odd.  Unless of course she means not submitting to anyone but her Dom.  Maybe I misunderstood.  Another - she wants to be helpless to Master's wishes but not his possession?   I don't relate to being an equal either, but there are other threads on that subject.  I am not equal yet I am listened to more than I have ever been listened to before.  I think she has this notion that subs are just ordered around all the time and nothing more.  There is life within submission.  I am a slave with a career, with a mind, with a heart and spirit, and expected to use them.  In fact part of what I am ordered to do - to think, analyze, critique, explore, be creative, dream, share insight, etc.

My guess is she has received confusing and conflicting advise so far.


I can only ditto this and add that it's very  normal and expected from a novice.  In time the illusions will fall away and hopefully be replaced by a secure reality- full of the screaming tornadoes that life will throw her in addition to the fun hot times right out of her fantasy.



Yeah, I have to agree with you here.  That's why I summed it up as I did.  Been there myself in SO many ways.  She is an example of what many refer to as "fresh clay, ready to be molded."  In that she has an interested and eager mind, ready to absorb all it can about where it is she believes she want to go.  With the right sculpter, she can hopefully avoid some of those needles tornados.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 8:11:42 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I can only ditto LA and LBO.......she's hungry but being realistically cautious, just trying to find her way and her special place in the whole thing.
( aren't we all...)



~Grinning~ Youre ditto'ing LA who was ditto'ing me?  Is that a double-ditto-deal?

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 8:13:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Yeah, I have to agree with you here.  That's why I summed it up as I did.  Been there myself in SO many ways.  She is an example of what many refer to as "fresh clay, ready to be molded."  In that she has an interested and eager mind, ready to absorb all it can about where it is she believes she want to go.  With the right sculpter, she can hopefully avoid some of those needles tornados.

Or, to continue your metaphor, one could say that one NEEDS to go through some of the tornadoes just as crystal must be abrasively cut and bathed in acid before it can sparkle- it's the cuts that help the FULL picture come out and cut to the truth of things.  It is what will "pierce the veil" of her illusions into the reality of life- hopefully the life she really wants.

Not that I think we all need to go through crap before we can understand ourselves, or that we need to make every mistake in the book- but there's few teachers better than experience.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 8:24:48 AM   
Prunesquallor


Posts: 181
Joined: 10/12/2005
Status: offline
It seems to me to be a very reasonable statement for someone who is new to the scene - I don't understand why many posters have to be so patronising about it.

As far as not being submissive outside the house, I think she means that she does not want to go through the motions of being submissive in alternative social situations.  Should she kneel in the street?   Should she kiss her Master's feet when they visit her parents?

She said she wants to be respected and not be a possession.  Without experience she doesn't yet realise that the two are not necessarily incompatible, and that the feeling of being a possession is the sweetest part of submission for many.  That is fair enough - she is not pretending to be experienced.

As far as displaying her submission in public, over here in the UK, you may have read about the Gorean who took his two slaves into town on leashes.  The result is that shopkeepers are refusing to serve him, and there are stories about him in the media.

I think what she wants is quite reasonable, and it is clear she has been thinking deeply about the issues.  That is better than rushing into situations and getting hurt - something that seems to happen to many on here.

Good luck to her.  I hope she will find the right Dom, will negotiate with him, and will then enter a happy and productive relationship that will give her the experience she needs.

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:10:44 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

I want to give the control of my mind and body to another let them take me over and do as they wish to me knowing that I am safe and that they would never go past the limits that we had agreed on.

Sounds good.

quote:

To know I’m safe in letting go... for the Master to do as he pleases to my body cause me as much pain and pleasure as pleases him giving and taking what he wants from me, but I want to be respected and treated as a human not as a possession...

Bummer. No Mistress?
What if he doesn’t want to use your body? Is it ok if he doesn’t want to cause your body pain and pleasure? Can he just tell you to get dressed up in a bunny outfit and wash the dishes and then cuddle with you on the sofa and occasionally flick your powder puff bunny tail and send you to bed at night to sleep?
Or would that not qualify as being respected and treated as a human, since you’d be treated as a … well, ya know… bunny, which are non-humans. (We’ll debate whether bunnies are possessions.)
quote:

I want to be tied up and helpless to the Masters wishes....

Tied up physically? Or are we talking mentally bound?
What if he’s not into bondage?
What if his wishes are for you to plant a garden? And then bring it full harvest, and use the veggies to make a good stew. And then have you drink the stew through a straw while he watches a football game on TV.
Is that ok?
Or did you have specific "wishes" in mind you wanted him to adhere to?
quote:

I want to experience everything at least ones to learn all I can and please as best I can. I have very few limits but other then those limits I want to try everything I want to expand myself and become the best I can.

That’s a very broad term. Experience everything once? What "everything" are you talking about? Are you referring to the cliché little BDSM checklist of kinky hot play? Or does experiencing everything also include grooming his dog, changing the transmission in the car, licking the stamps to mail out the bills, submitting to his friends, taking up spit tobacco, licking the toilet clean, and all those anti-TOS kinks?
Careful what you wish for.
What do you mean by becoming the best you can?
quote:

How I would like my life as a slave to be... I want rules and consequences restrictions that will stay through all aspects of my life but at the same time I don’t want to be seen as a sub outside the home...
I get the impression you are saying "I need discretion" or "I need to keep my lifestyle in the closet".
Am I correct?
If so, make that more than clear on your profile. Some of us are only looking for subs that are out of the closet.
quote:

i want to have some times at which I am seen as an equal listened to and not just ordered.
Do some reading on some of the threads here about equality. (LA would probably be more than happy to pull some of those threads for you.) People define "equal" differently and it’s important to make sure you are articulating exactly what you mean.
quote:

I’m in school and working very hard towards my Masters and I do wish to have a professional life

Good for you! It’s always so nice to see a sub take control of their life when they’re single!
quote:

I do not wish to be a sub at all times... I don’t think I have it in me to always be in sub mode maybe I do but at the moment I don’t see it.

So, you are a part-time submissive?
I get 2 impressions here. Either 1) you are a part-time sub (maybe a bedroom submissive, or a bottom, only interested in submitting during playtime, or a "in scene" submissive who only submits during defined scene time). If that’s the case, it’s probably beneficial to clarify what you mean. When are you willing to submit? How often? For what activities? Would that include a collar that goes on for scene and comes off afterward? No collars? No 24/7? Expand on the who/what/when/where/why/how of the times you are willing to submit and the times you are not.
~OR~
2) you are under the impression that being a submissive "all the time" means you lose your identity as a person.
Chew on that thought for a while.
quote:

I want to be dominated but i want to be treated with respect (the way I see it is if you want respect from me you have to have respect for me)

A good portion of Dominants feel the same way. Most (some?) of us simply see respect as a given. It’s a basic tenement of interaction; just like honesty, communication, politeness, etc…
I’m curious why you singled out the virtue of respectfulness. (You mentioned it above also.) Are you under the impression that disrespect toward submissives is an inherent part of most D/s relationships?

Overall, this looks like a typical newbie stance from a female submissive ISO a male Dominant, with a hint of "I am woman, hear me roar." It has the typical references to a lot of playtime/use of the body/bondage/kink-related limits, and a lot of reference to "I’m not your dog." mentality. Which is pretty typical from what I’ve seen. Most people who are focused intensely on being used as a playtoy, tend to put up defenses to make sure they aren’t abused as a playtoy.

I’m still not sure if you’re looking for a boyfriend who will Dominate you in the bedroom or if you’re looking for a Dominant man who lives near you or if you’re looking for a Dominant boyfriend to cohabitate with or if you’re looking for a 24/7 TPE Master. You kind of hint to "all of the above". It might take time to figure that out for yourself even, as you watch, learn, grow, and see all the different types of BDSM relationships that are available. You’ll probably run across relationships and say "Yeah, that’s what I’m looking for except I’d change ABC about it." and "Holy shit. That’s exactly what I mean when I say I don’t want XYZ." and over time, you’ll be gaining more precise focus on what you’re looking for (and not looking for).

As someone else mentioned, you do seem to be wearing those Castlerealm tinted glasses that make this lifestyle seem like a wonderful fantasy. "He treats me like a precious jewel whilst spanking my hiney. I bow before him, loving lick his manhood, drink his nectar, surrender my mind, heart, soul, and body to him. I clean his home, press his garments, and artfully scrape a heart into his peanut butter sandwich. ----- except when I’m not in the mood."

A lot of what I was pointing out in my above comments to you is that there is no "true Master". You’d be hard pressed to find a Master who wants you to submit – only when you want to submit, who spanks your bum nightly, tethers you to his heart each night, shows you off to his kinky friends, but pretends you’re the little vanilla wife to his co-workers, gives you a list of 10 basic slave rules, but only expects you to abide by them when you’re dressed up as his little leather girlie, and skips watching the Super Bowl because he’d rather flog you.

You’re probably more likely to find either a Top, who doesn’t want a commitment, or a Master who wants control of you all the time – even when you’re not in the mood. You’re probably going to be doing more grocery shopping and cleaning house than being bound to the bed. You’ll probably get mundane icky tasks like clipping his toenails and cleaning out the leftovers in the refrigerator instead of bending over for a nightly spanking. He’ll probably want you to obey his rules even when you’ve just had a hard day at work, and he might want a blow job even though he’s still in his work clothes instead of dressed up in his black leather outfit. The "new things" he wants you to try might be wacky (like dressing up like a bunny instead of dressing up like a catholic school girl), or gross (like eating those toenail clippings instead of eating his cum), or for your development (like learning the value of growing a vegetable garden instead of learning the value of a good whipping).

Avoid the fiction that sensationalizes the lifestyle. If you want to read, put down the beauty series and the story of O and pick up some realistic books from greenery press. If you want to talk, get out of the IRC chat room and get on some forums. If you want to watch, turn off the secretary and go to a munch. Get around real people who are willing to talk about their experiences instead of writing about their fantasies. You might just find that the reality is a hell of lot more fulfilling than any fantasy could ever have been.

After a long day of working hard for the system, washing those damn dishes, and clipping those toenails, a spanking might seem overwhelming, whereas being cuddled and snuggled in a bunny suit might make you feel safe, protected, accepted, cared-for, and loved.


_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:16:57 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Yeah, I have to agree with you here.  That's why I summed it up as I did.  Been there myself in SO many ways.  She is an example of what many refer to as "fresh clay, ready to be molded."  In that she has an interested and eager mind, ready to absorb all it can about where it is she believes she want to go.  With the right sculpter, she can hopefully avoid some of those needles tornados.

Or, to continue your metaphor, one could say that one NEEDS to go through some of the tornadoes just as crystal must be abrasively cut and bathed in acid before it can sparkle- it's the cuts that help the FULL picture come out and cut to the truth of things.  It is what will "pierce the veil" of her illusions into the reality of life- hopefully the life she really wants.

Not that I think we all need to go through crap before we can understand ourselves, or that we need to make every mistake in the book- but there's few teachers better than experience.


Oh I agree, which is why I said avoid some needless tornadoes (actually I said "needles" but meant needless, lol what what I thinking?!).  Others can be quite effective in one's development.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:21:51 PM   
TolerableCruelty


Posts: 447
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

As someone else mentioned, you do seem to be wearing those Castlerealm tinted glasses that make this lifestyle seem like a wonderful fantasy. "He treats me like a precious jewel whilst spanking my hiney. I bow before him, loving lick his manhood, drink his nectar, surrender my mind, heart, soul, and body to him. I clean his home, press his garments, and artfully scrape a heart into his peanut butter sandwich. ----- except when I’m not in the mood."



*ROARS WITH LAUGHTER* oh christ.... I almost had beer shoot out My nose with that.....

gawd.... I love castlerealm.... its been a constant source of laughter for Me since I came around this 8 years ago...

T.R.

_____________________________

Never explain~~Your friends do not need it, and your enemies will not believe you

I'm sorry if I've offended you.... but maybe you needed to be offended

(in reply to Proprietrix)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:22:14 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
I find that this is quite common with completely new explorers in this realm. I think that many desire to yield completely, but they are afraid -- they want to make sure that there will still be something of "them", as they see themselves, left when all is said and done.

I don't find this the -least- bit unreasonable, or unexpected. We've had some completely amazing servants here who came in with these kind of ideas -- they wanted the opportunity to explore -everything-, but to still be able to retain themselves and know that if they couldn't handle something, they would be with someone who would understand, and either slow down until they -could- or let go of that thing to make sure that the servant was safe.

It is one of the things that we truly -enjoy- about working with newcomers to the lifestyle. We have had the pleasure of working with more than a few who wanted to explore while looking for the one person who would be their final focus, and it was a pleasure to help them to define themselves in relation to D/s (we don't do a lot of BDSM) so that they -could- find that person who would be the one who would balance and complement them.

ZWD


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Oh, Darling.....is this our FIRST fight?  I din't mean it as you took it, love.  I meant that she sees this really tight grip with a loose pinkie.....choke with breathe.....I am not good at explaining this in allegory.





_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.

Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:32:03 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

I was talking to a sub and she is feeling very new and overwhelmed by the BDSM world. I asked her to write me her personal views on how she would submit in a BDSM relation as a sub as well as a slave. I was sitting here on pins and needles wondering if their was anyway I could contribute to what she is looking for. As most of you know I am not sadistic and am here for 24/7 TPE and all the wonderfully magical things that go along with it. So I am thinking, how can I help a girl who is pursuing BDSM for it’s many facets. The answer of course was networking through all the good people here and asking for them to contribute in all the area’s I lack. Of course benji is not on my good people list, he is on the awesome subby boy list and would be a credit to most submissives here. He has quite a talent for engaging the boards, regardless of topic, and always maintains respect even when he is telling someone to go to hell. So I requested the girl write this out and it just blew my mind. She is quite clear in what she is looking for and represents that very well. I am going to post what she gave me and I would appreciate the community feedback on her statements. I am posting this anonymously and leaving for her to contact you on the other side if she feels compelled.
Thank you all
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The way I would like to experience life as a submissive I’m not totally sure I could put words too.
        I want to give the control of my mind and body to another let them take me over and do as they wish to me knowing that I am safe and that they would never go past the limits that we had agreed on.
      To know I’m safe in letting go... for the Master to do as he pleases to my body cause me as much pain and pleasure as pleases him giving and taking what he wants from me, but I want to be respected and treated as a human not as a possession... I’m not sure if that make. I want to be tied up and helpless to the Masters wishes.... I want to experience everything at least ones to learn all I can and please as best I can. I have very few limits but other then those limits I want to try everything I want to expand myself and become the best I can.
                   How I would like my life as a slave to be... I want rules and consequences restrictions that will stay through all aspects of my life but at the same time I don’t want to be seen as a sub outside the home... i want to have some times at which I am seen as an equal listened to and not just ordered. I’m in school and working very hard towards my Masters and I do wish to have a professional life I do not wish to be a sub at all times... I don’t think I have it in me to always be in sub mode maybe I do but at the moment I don’t see it. I want to be dominated but i want to be treated with respect (the way I see it is if you want respect from me you have to have respect for me)



Sorry if Im being dense, but Im not clear.  She is or *isn't* aware that her most personal thoughts are here in a public forum??  ( I got the anonymous part)

(in reply to Wulfchyld)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:37:49 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Sorry if Im being dense, but Im not clear.  She is or *isn't* aware that her most personal thoughts are here in a public forum??  ( I got the anonymous part)

I actually wondered this as well.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 12:41:02 PM   
LadiesBladewing


Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:



Bummer. No Mistress?
What if he doesn’t want to use your body?

Is it ok if he doesn’t want to cause your body pain and pleasure?

Can he just tell you to get dressed up in a bunny outfit and wash the dishes and then cuddle with you on the sofa and occasionally flick your powder puff bunny tail and send you to bed at night to sleep? Or would that not qualify as being respected and treated as a human, since you’d be treated as a … well, ya know… bunny, which are non-humans. (We’ll debate whether bunnies are possessions.)

{clipped}

What if he’s not into bondage?
What if his wishes are for you to plant a garden? And then bring it full harvest, and use the veggies to make a good stew. And then have you drink the stew through a straw while he watches a football game on TV.
Is that ok?

Or did you have specific "wishes" in mind you wanted him to adhere to?


I've read a few comments regarding this, so this isn't specifically referencing Proprietrix' post, but hers offered a couple of really clear paragraphs to reference.

One thing that I note here is that she does have a lot of "newcomer" restrictions and inhibitions. However, if she knows what she's looking for, at least in part, hopefully she'll have the sense not to try to develop a relationship with someone who either wants things she doesn't want, or doesn't want things she does. Sometimes, if the relationship is right, people can adjust expectations -- however, if the expectations are too far off the mark, chances are the relationship won't survive long enough to find out if there are other elements that could make up for the "missing pieces" or "misfit items".

I also find that it is very challenging to know specifics when one is inexperienced -- even if a person can picture what something might feel like, they may not be able to get any feeling for how it might be for them -- so the early profiles tend to be vague, until likes and dislikes are discovered through exploration. This is fine -- but it is important, I think, for the individual to be clear that they don't -know- what to expect, and may not want to continue something, even though it sounded cool on paper, when they find out what it brings to the surface for -them-.

This is one reason that I -do- believe in "training" or "exploratory" opportunities for newcomers. It may help keep two (or more) people from ending up in a very unsatisfying relationship simply on the grounds of inexperience and vaguary.

ZWD

_____________________________


"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.

Bladewing Enclave

(in reply to Proprietrix)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: NewB girl - 6/24/2006 1:13:53 PM   
LeatherLord2003


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline
I personally think the girl in question is at least smart enough to stop and ask before she leaps...and I have to agree with LadiesBladewing, it is hard to know when not experienced. Especially in a lifestyle that the more you know, the more you want. She seems to be taking baby steps and hopefully will have a great experience and a wonderful life in this lifestyle. So many people that don't fit any one particular individual. Good smarts to have standards and hold yourself to them, even if they are not what you will eventually desire. It works for the moment and as knowledge is gained, her outlook will change.

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: NewB girl - 6/25/2006 11:59:12 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Sorry if Im being dense, but Im not clear.  She is or *isn't* aware that her most personal thoughts are here in a public forum??  ( I got the anonymous part)

I actually wondered this as well.

Wow I like having proof that I'm not really that cynical.  It never even occurred to me that someone who claimed to want to help train and bring up so much and had taken someone to the point of asking for their personal thoughts would even DREAM of betraying that trust without getting permission before posting it in public.

Unfortunately, it is a question worth asking.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: NewB girl - 6/25/2006 12:25:30 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I hope there was permission also.  I just assumed there was, from Loki mentioning that the submissive would contact off forum with relevant questions.  Else the mods will pull the post if they deem there wasn't permission.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
quote:

I am going to post what she gave me and I would appreciate the community feedback on her statements. I am posting this anonymously and leaving for her to contact you on the other side if she feels compelled.
Thank you all


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: NewB girl - 6/26/2006 7:24:35 PM   
shysecrets


Posts: 14
Joined: 6/26/2006
Status: offline
Iv been following the thread silently in the shadows and want to thank the few that gave some sound advise and also to say that Loki had complete permition to post what he did..... As he asked befor he did so and was asked to please post it...so please dont question his good intentions!!

thank you

shy

< Message edited by shysecrets -- 6/26/2006 7:28:55 PM >

(in reply to MissDiandSirHugh)
Profile   Post #: 38
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