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RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 7:37:00 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

True.

However as an outside observer, it really does not matter who you have as governmentt, as long as the major parties in the UK are in denial about the significant social, economic and political contradictions in the UK and the kingdom's need for a broad based infrastructural and ideological change.

You cannot keep a quarter of your population on "the dole" or your massive and overpaid Civil Service and governmental legions while hoping to punch it out as a world imperial power, and importing half your food, and much of the rest of your basic needs, with a declining industrial base. The City of London and it's financial criminals are living on borrowed time, and when that runs out, the UK will be in real trouble.

In spite of any political rhetoric or English cultural fictions, if the UK does not start taking effective steps to rectify these and other problems, it does not matter if you are in the EU or not, or if a Tory, Lib Dem or Labourite is your PM, or which party controls the growingly ineffectual UK Parliament.

But I can understand why the UK posters do not wish to discuss this publicly, it is easier for the English experts to instruct the Yankees or those in other nations on their failings and how the English professionals would quickly and easily solve them if these English lived in or controlled the United States, Costa Rica, etc.


Oh yes, we certainly do have problems. I would disagree with the assertion that it is irrelevant who is in charge though, its difficult to imagine Ed Miliband following the same strategy for dealing with the recession as George Osborne and David Cameron have. I would also suggest that further European integration would have a profound impact on British policy and ideology. I would agree on the need for deep change; despite my crowing over the prospect of a split in Tory electoral support I would like to see a new progressive party on the rise - recently I have considered the green party. Here is where we get to what I consider a fundamental problem with fptp though. I disagree with Labour policy (although I am warming to Ed Miliband), but because I consider a Labour-led government more appealing than a Tory-led one I will probably vote Labour rather than Green at the next election. I think our electoral system is rather staid, and in fact holds us back. People have suggested that coalition governments make it harder to make big decisions, but I would consider that majority government ensures that the big decisions aren't even discussed.

Not that I'm fishing for more UK-centric threads (honest), but I think your post perhaps pushes the borders of relevancy with regard to the gains of UKIP in the recent local elections. Could we have a new thread? I'm slightly bemused by the assumption that "The UK posters" all think the same thing, although at least you aren't telling us to 'shut our stupid mouths' as I have seen recently. About the only thing I do consistently on these boards is bash Britain!

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 7:44:36 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		Well there certainly is no shortage of threads by the English (and English colonials) "bashing" other nations here. You reap what you sow . . .

As for your politics, that is an internal matter. What you do internationally is not, when the UK does things that affects other nations adversely you certainly can expect to be "called" on it.



< Message edited by YN -- 5/4/2013 7:46:23 AM >

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 8:22:27 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Well there certainly is no shortage of threads by the English (and English colonials) "bashing" other nations here. You reap what you sow . . .

As for your politics, that is an internal matter. What you do internationally is not, when the UK does things that affects other nations adversely you certainly can expect to be "called" on it.





Its a difficult one, because its a fact that the majority of the discussion here are US-centric, and tend to be rather confrontational in their nature. There is plenty of bashing going on pretty much every discussion, and the US definitely bear the brunt of that. That's why I'm glad to see a UK-centric thread on here, it facilitates a fresh discussion. I wouldn't presume that I have a more intrinsically valuable opinion of Britain, or of British affairs, simply by dint of being born here, other than I can and have used firsthand examples to illustrate my arguments when we are talking about Britain. That doesn't make my opinion more worthy, and the same is true of threads that are US-centric.

I have no problem with you calling Britain on any issue, from our role in the Middle East to the impact of extended maintenance work on the Southport Coastal Road. I would be grateful for the same courtesy, even though I do appreciate I have far more opportunity to call America than you do Britain.

< Message edited by thezeppo -- 5/4/2013 8:24:13 AM >

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 8:26:56 AM   
VideoAdminChi


Posts: 3086
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		I would like to take this opportunity to remind posters that criticism of a country's policy is allowed but personal attacks against collarme posters are not.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 8:36:44 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		Moving forward, as I noted the UK is not the only country Brussels faces a revolt in.

More interesting is the propaganda and disinformation campaign the EU has installed to fight this dissent, along with their growing negative public opinion worldwide.

And the EU is loosing the public opinion race in the Latin Americas, due to a number of factors, the main being their economic and political policies directed at us. The UK is lumped in that both individually as a result of the UK's actions and as a collective part of the EU.

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 8:59:17 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline 		Apologies for my assumption you were from the US.

As regards the UK at least, the propaganda certainly goes both ways.

The EU is really the only show in town for Europe, for the reasons you gave in your original post. Its unfortunate that it is so prone to being undemocratic, self-serving and outright corrupt in some situations, as with the exception of Germany it appears Europe will only collectively be a serious global player. I prefer the way MEP's are elected in comparison with UK MP's. If the role of the executive was marginalised in favour of the EU Parliament then I would have more hope for the institution. I don't think European institutions are inherently bad, but to be effective there needs to be changes made. It's catch-22 though, I can't see how to make the EU a more legitimate, democratically representative and accountable institution without greater integration (e.g. a constitution) but popular opinion suggests this to be less and less likely. I don't think withdrawal from Europe is an option though, and I certainly don't see how it would benefit us.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 9:11:51 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		From what I can see at a distance, the UK sits in the position of a person married to a drug addict, (and with children) you are damned if you stay and damned if you leave.

Being a EU member offers a great series of economic, and political advantages to the UK, and Brussels will certainly punish you if you leave.

However, as Bolivar noted many years ago, any large political unit will certainly become an autocracy unless strict measures are taken, and the EU is no exception.

In the case of the EU, any attempts at "democracy" appear to be discarded. Unless the EU takes steps to "federalize" their government, you will certainly end up with a political authority resembling China, or the Roman empire where mandarins run Europe.

While this can be good or bad, in the case of the EU, the "mandarins" appear to be chosen by the European elites, as opposed to any sort or pretense of a meritocracy.

The MEP's appear to have little say or importance.

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 9:44:57 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline 		I think its the half-hearted approach to European integration that has led Britain to its current relationship with the EU. I also think the root of euroscepticism in the UK is the perception that we pay for something, we enjoy none of its benefits while suffering through all of its drawbacks. If our political leaders had been more optimistic and enthusiastic from the get-go then we may have a more central role in the direction of Europe.

I would hope that any institution which is serious about being democratic would realise that its directly elected members are far more valuable than its indirectly elected ones. The European Parliament have traditionally had less importance, but it appears moves are being made in the right direction there (e.g. Treaty of Lisbon 2009). I agree with you regarding federalisation, but I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

Maybe the UK and Europe is getting its comeuppance, but I don't think the situation is quite hopeless just yet.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 9:55:18 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I also think the root of euroscepticism in the UK is the perception that we pay for something, we enjoy none of its benefits while suffering through all of its drawbacks.


I think thats a valid point...

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 10:04:07 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		England and the rest of the nations in the EU need to become the actors instead of the reactors, in my opinion.

If Brussels is left to it's own devices, as appears to be the case, they will certainly come to be an autocracy answerable only to themselves.

If a federalization is what Europe wants, then that is what needs to be demanded, and you have the United States (the largest) and other federal republics as an example of what sort provisions, and of checks and balances you might consider inflicting on this federation's government. I would have a separation of powers between separate executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and a written charter of authoritative and binding principles, at minimum.

If an empire is acceptable, you have examples for that historically available, and you have China as an example of how a "meritocratic" bureaucracy governs a large area.

Myself, I would go with a federation, at least under the theory that if the federation fell apart, my own nation would still have an effective government, and not be left in anarchy, and that we would have some semblance of a voice in what the federation does.

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 10:23:50 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

England and the rest of the nations in the EU need to become the actors instead of the reactors, in my opinion.

If Brussels is left to it's own devices, as appears to be the case, they will certainly come to be an autocracy answerable only to themselves.

If a federalization is what Europe wants, then that is what needs to be demanded, and you have the United States (the largest) and other federal republics as an example of what sort provisions, and of checks and balances you might consider inflicting on this federation's government. I would have a separation of powers between separate executive, legislative, and judicial branches, and a written charter of authoritative and binding principles, at minimum.

If an empire is acceptable, you have examples for that historically available, and you have China as an example of how a "meritocratic" bureaucracy governs a large area.

Myself, I would go with a federation, at least under the theory that if the federation fell apart, my own nation would still have an effective government, and not be left in anarchy, and that we would have some semblance of a voice in what the federation does.


I think your reasoning for wanting the federation highlights the problem with the EU - for it to work its members could not be thinking of how to escape via the backdoor or trying to look out for national interests. It requires a commitment through thick and thin, which Britain has proven itself unwilling to give.

I think the American model is the most obvious example to follow if one were interested in greater political integration in Europe. The constitution was rejected though, so where to start? It appears as though Europe doesn't really want greater integration, in which case someone needs to come up with a plan B pretty fast!

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 10:27:57 AM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I also think the root of euroscepticism in the UK is the perception that we pay for something, we enjoy none of its benefits while suffering through all of its drawbacks.


I think thats a valid point...


do you mean the perception is a valid point? I think that is of our own doing, we have chosen to not lead in the EU, but rather complain from the sidelines.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 10:50:58 AM   
YN


Posts: 699
Status: offline 		We have had enough entertainment with assembling the Latin Americas into a unified federation (and paid for it with a 2 century period of European and North American imperialism) to pretend we are skilled at this art, or that it is an easy thing to do. And we share cultures and language to a greater extent.

Currently UNASUR is a work in progress, hopefully it might fly before the end of the decade.

However in the case of the EU, if the nations of Europe don't start driving the EU, they will find the EU driving them.

And your analysis is correct, for if petty nationalistic bickering or privilege is the driving force behind any dissent, the Eurocrats will certainly apply the "divide and conquer" tactics an empire normally uses to subjugate the rebellious, and the members states will take turns whipping each other while the EU government gains strength and powers from each exchange.

(in reply to thezeppo)
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RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 11:45:00 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Your champion Cameron, the English aristocracy you worship as gods, and your fellow Tories are not laughing.



You assume too much and know too little to be anything but irksome. I have made it clear Cameron wont get my vote again, yet stupidity gets the better of you and you cliam he is my champion...... Go figure. Mind you, you could always read my posts on the man in question.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 11:59:22 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The Tories, and I vote for them, have a major problem. They dont listen to what the electorate is saying. No one is against immigration per se, but you cant have mass immigration while you are closing down mainstream public services. Schools hospitals, house building (already at a low) The UK isnt as fortunate as the US in having space or resources capable of accepting large numbers into the country.




I find such view to be sheer folly. On the one hand, mass immigration is a driver, an increasing burden, on services which have become strained beyond sustainability. On the other hand, mass immigration has been seen as a necessity for various political reasoning. Here in the US, many think immigration is virtually a right. Eric Holder said that the other day, in so many words. The idea of "Give us your tired, your poor, your wretched masses yearning to be free" is quite noble in spirit, but is it healthy for the US, or the UK, if one considers culture and national identity; what it is about the US that can be quantified as "being free." UKIP may be anti-EU, but is it anti-mass immigration?

The US may enjoy space far beyond what the UK has to offer, but US resources are not so unlimited as to be capable of sustaining services with ever increasing mass immigration.

One topic I do not see any party addressing is that of Culture, and the changes one should expect with large numbers of dissimilar cultures being allowed inside the gates. It's unfortunate that an immigrant, stepping onto UK soil for the first time, doesn't suddenly start talking with a British accent and have a craving for Fish-n-Chips. This is no slight to the immigrant, but an historical fact where mass immigration has been permitted.

Do immigrants embrace the culture? Here's a question - "How many generations would it take a middle-east immigrant family, if submerged in British culture without sufficient of their own kind around as to sustain the culture they bring with them, to become British and adhere to the concept of British nationalism and identity? Yes, the US has Chinatown and immigrant enclaves. That does not negate my point. It enhances it.

The problems facing the UK, and the EU for that matter, are more than mere dwindling government services. Same goes for the US.

As PoliteSub seems to indicate, many believe government services must be sustained as to continue the mass immigration.



You fail to grasp the obvious. The UK, doesnt have the facilities to provide social welfare for those wishing to move here. Housing is at a premium, especially in the south. Industry has been globalised or outsourced. So we now have a lack of jobs to add to the lack of facilities. Size wise, its like sending all those who wish to move here to a place the size of Arkansas and expecting things to work out.

Good question about culture. Many families intergrate okay in the wider community whilst sticking to their own inherited cultures, much the same as happens in the States. As with any country second generation immigrants mix way better than first generation, but less so than third generation. There is no reason why British kids with African/Asian backgrounds, cant embrace two cultures.


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 12:06:20 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Well there certainly is no shortage of threads by the English (and English colonials) "bashing" other nations here. You reap what you sow . . .

As for your politics, that is an internal matter. What you do internationally is not, when the UK does things that affects other nations adversely you certainly can expect to be "called" on it.




If you care to read previous threads, the Brits on here are quick to point out our own governments follys. Your notion that there is such a thing as "English Colonials" is patronising to those concerned and has been since 1776. American ideals and British ideals may be similar but on many levels they are diametrically opposed.

(in reply to YN)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 12:33:22 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Well there certainly is no shortage of threads by the English (and English colonials) "bashing" other nations here. You reap what you sow . . .

As for your politics, that is an internal matter. What you do internationally is not, when the UK does things that affects other nations adversely you certainly can expect to be "called" on it.




If you care to read previous threads, the Brits on here are quick to point out our own governments follys. Your notion that there is such a thing as "English Colonials" is patronising to those concerned and has been since 1776. American ideals and British ideals may be similar but on many levels they are diametrically opposed.

As I have said before, Polite, there are some observers from Latin America who are unable to face the true source of responsibility for the grinding poverty of their own indigenous people and so wish to divert blame to the 'colonialists' and 'imperialists' who in fact have had no role in maintaining a regimen of slave labour of the peasants by the land holders and mine owners in Mexico and the south. The rebellion of the Zapatistas in Chiapas comes to mind as an example of when the finger of guilt was properly pointed.

It is worst than patronizing. It is either delusional or the well worn marxist propaganda. Maybe both.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 12:43:40 PM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo
I also think the root of euroscepticism in the UK is the perception that we pay for something, we enjoy none of its benefits while suffering through all of its drawbacks.


I think thats a valid point...


do you mean the perception is a valid point? I think that is of our own doing, we have chosen to not lead in the EU, but rather complain from the sidelines.


That's how it felt to me when I was living in the UK whenever the EU was topic....

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 12:50:27 PM   
thezeppo


Posts: 441
Joined: 11/15/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Your champion Cameron, the English aristocracy you worship as gods, and your fellow Tories are not laughing.



You assume too much and know too little to be anything but irksome. I have made it clear Cameron wont get my vote again, yet stupidity gets the better of you and you cliam he is my champion...... Go figure. Mind you, you could always read my posts on the man in question.


The next general election will be the hardest decision I have had to make yet, albeit an irrelevant one assuming I am still in the same constituency at that point. I cannot imagine we will end up with a majority government after 2014/5.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Not everyone wants it... - 5/4/2013 5:11:27 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: YN

Your champion Cameron, the English aristocracy you worship as gods, and your fellow Tories are not laughing.



You assume too much and know too little to be anything but irksome. I have made it clear Cameron wont get my vote again, yet stupidity gets the better of you and you cliam he is my champion...... Go figure. Mind you, you could always read my posts on the man in question.


The next general election will be the hardest decision I have had to make yet, albeit an irrelevant one assuming I am still in the same constituency at that point. I cannot imagine we will end up with a majority government after 2014/5.


Mine too. I havent voted Labour in several decades, due to the policies of the "looney left". Blair and Brown ensured I wouldnt vote New Labour and now Cameron sees to it I almost certainly wont vote Conservative. In my mind, the Liberals are not a viable alternative, nor are UKIP (yet). Ed Milliband is shapping up okay though and I may vote for him depending on the Labour manifesto. Wouldnt it be good if a manifesto was made compulsory if a party got elected, unless circumstance dictated otherwise.

(in reply to thezeppo)
Profile   Post #: 40
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