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It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 6:25:22 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		Via ZH -

From Wired:

The immigration reform measure the Senate began debating yesterday would create a national biometric database of virtually every adult in the U.S., in what privacy groups fear could be the first step to a ubiquitous national identification system.

Buried in the more than 800 pages of the bipartisan legislation (.pdf) is language mandating the creation of the innocuously-named “photo tool,” a massive federal database administered by the Department of Homeland Security and containing names, ages, Social Security numbers and photographs of everyone in the country with a driver’s license or other state-issued photo ID.


I'm absolutely positive there is nothing sinister about it. NO WAY!!!

Continuing -


“It starts to change the relationship between the citizen and state, you do have to get permission to do things,” said Chris Calabrese, a congressional lobbyist with the American Civil Liberties Union. “More fundamentally, it could be the start of keeping a record of all things.”

Sounds like mission creep to me, and that's absurd! The government never, repeat, NEVER, goes beyond its mission.

Then there is crap like this. It should be outlawed. Such writing should be punishable by death!

quote:

Barack Obama was giving a commencement speech the other day and said the following:

Still, you’ll hear voices that incessantly warn of government as nothing more than some separate, sinister entity that’s the root of all our problems, even as they do their best to gum up the works; or that tyranny always lurks just around the corner. You should reject these voices. Because what they suggest is that our brave, creative, unique experiment in self-rule is just a sham with which we can’t be trusted.



Of course government can be trusted. It earns that trust every day. Like the IRS targeting those evil right wing groups. This is self rule after all, isn't it?

continuing from that absurd posting -

Let’s see… The first American president that’s actually had to argue that he’s not a dictator, who has to have a big debate over whether it is okay to just waste American citizens on US soil without any due process, who broke thousands of federal laws in order to ship guns to Mexican drug cartels to drum up phony stats against his political enemies, and who blamed a terrorist attack on a YouTube video, says that the idea that potential tyranny looms is just silly.

Sounds legit to me!

Sure, Barack Obama has grown the federal leviathan bigger and stronger and more intrusive than it has ever been, and it was already bloated, absurd, and terrifying before, but talking about how this government could become too powerful and thus tyrannical like all of the other governments in human history which did the same thing before… well, that’s just crazy talk!

Well shit! Bush did it and no one complained. Complaining is right wing radical Paulite crazy talk.

Or we could listen to the actual brave, creative smart folks that actually came up with our unique experiment in self-rule, like Thomas Jefferson. “When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.

So crazy right wing kook Thomas Jefferson is out there gumming up the works saying that people fearing the government equals tyranny. But as our wise, all knowing, always helpful government has taught us, if you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to fear, unless you do something totally evil, like drink milk not approved by the USDA, or your kids chew a Pop Tart into something vaguely shaped like a firearm.

Jefferson was just a raciss white guy, and a terrorist too. The next kid who even draws a picture of a evil gun should be drawn and quartered. We absolutely need a biometric system to keep track of people.

It's people who can't be trusted, not government. History shows that It's liberty that's the sham. People are best when controlled. The more control, the better people are. I really do need to be protected from myself, and my hankering for a super-sized (32oz) drink.

I feel all warm and fuzzy, nestled in the loving arms of Big Brother. He'll take care of me. Who cares if Obamacare/Romneycare costs so much. I get such a tingle from it. Where do I sign up?



Enjoy!

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/12/2013 6:59:28 AM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 7:29:34 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		So explain the paranoid`s fear....


What dangers exactly(be specific) would a genetic/biometric data-base pose?\


Seems like all the lunatic fringers envision some sort of gubment evil doing.

But what would stop someone from doing "evil" stuff in the absence of such a national data-base?


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/12/2013 7:31:09 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 7:43:01 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		@ Owner59 -

Your comment is deliciously leftist.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 7:52:44 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		There is already a photo tool up and running for Everify.

Here is a copy of the pending Bill. I searched but was unable to find the section on the photo tool that would be mandated for every citizen. Would you please show me the passage. I think we should know the proposed language instead of second hand reports before we get into a rage over it. Thanks for your help, Yachtie.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 9:29:14 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		Wow, Vincent, [deleted as would violate TOS]


see pages 175 - 178. No distinction is made for documents of US Citizens (which happens to specifically included) from those of, or issued to, foreign nationals. Also note the following, stated at the beginning -

To provide for comprehensive immigration reform and for other purposes.


Now, what the hell do YOU think "other purposes" means?




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 9:45:46 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Via ZH -

From Wired:

The immigration reform measure the Senate began debating yesterday would create a national biometric database of virtually every adult in the U.S., in what privacy groups fear could be the first step to a ubiquitous national identification system.

Buried in the more than 800 pages of the bipartisan legislation (.pdf) is language mandating the creation of the innocuously-named “photo tool,” a massive federal database administered by the Department of Homeland Security and containing names, ages, Social Security numbers and photographs of everyone in the country with a driver’s license or other state-issued photo ID.


Omg I did not know that the government did not already know everyone's social security number or age,or drivers license number or have their picture.

quote:

Of course government can be trusted. It earns that trust every day. Like the IRS targeting those evil right wing groups. This is self rule after all, isn't it?


Has the irs targeted "evil left wing groups"like acorn?

quote:

continuing from that absurd posting -

Let’s see… The first American president that’s actually had to argue that he’s not a dictator,



History is not on the side of that statement.

quote:

who has to have a big debate over whether it is okay to just waste American citizens on US soil without any due process,

Like native americans?

quote:

who broke thousands of federal laws in order to ship guns to Mexican drug cartels to drum up phony stats against his political enemies,



Any validation for this moronic statement?

quote:

Sure, Barack Obama has grown the federal leviathan bigger and stronger and more intrusive than it has ever been,


Any validation to back that up?History seems to mention a few who made the govt more intrusive.

quote:

Or we could listen to the actual brave, creative smart folks that actually came up with our unique experiment in self-rule, like Thomas Jefferson.


While jefferson was quite bright I find nothing in his biographies that would attest to his bravery. As for self rule we are a republic and the definition of a republic seems in direct opposition to "self rule"

quote:

So crazy right wing kook Thomas Jefferson is out there gumming up the works saying that people fearing the government equals tyranny. But as our wise, all knowing, always helpful government has taught us, if you’ve done nothing wrong, you’ve got nothing to fear, unless you do something totally evil, like drink milk not approved by the USDA, or your kids chew a Pop Tart into something vaguely shaped like a firearm.


What law prohibits you from drinking milk not approved by the usda? What law prohibits gun shaped pop tarts?

quote:

Jefferson was just a raciss white guy, and a terrorist too.


There is plenty of evidence that he was a racist and I believe that the britt parliment and george the dumbass felt that he was a terrorist.

quote:

It's people who can't be trusted


Ther are some who can't be trusted so the government makes laws to protect us from them.

quote:

I feel all warm and fuzzy, nestled in the loving arms of Big Brother. He'll take care of me.

Well without the govt taking care of the waterways you yacht on your boat would be on the hard.


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 10:02:24 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

There's an interesting tonal shift as one goes from the original Wired piece to the ZH post to the OP. What was a straightforward story becomes something of a screed--strident and, well yes, a bit paranoid. That's a shame, because what may be an important civil liberties concern gets slathered with hysteria and overlooked.


quote:

But privacy advocates fear the inevitable mission creep, ending with the proof of self being required at polling places, to rent a house, buy a gun, open a bank account, acquire credit, board a plane or even attend a sporting event or log on the internet.

Don't most of these activities already require some form of ID?


quote:

The first American president that’s actually had to argue that he’s not a dictator ...

Are you referring to Obama? If so, a glance back at history might be informative. Jefferson et al feared that Washington and Adams were too monarchical, then what remained of the Federalists thought Jefferson had amassed too much power, particularly in the wake of the Louisiana Purchase. Lincoln was accused of being dictatorial, as were both World War presidents, Wilson and FDR.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 11:23:19 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie



quote:

Barack Obama was giving a commencement speech the other day and said the following:

Still, you’ll hear voices that incessantly warn of government as nothing more than some separate, sinister entity that’s the root of all our problems, even as they do their best to gum up the works; or that tyranny always lurks just around the corner. You should reject these voices. Because what they suggest is that our brave, creative, unique experiment in self-rule is just a sham with which we can’t be trusted.



Of course government can be trusted. It earns that trust every day. Like the IRS targeting those evil right wing groups. This is self rule after all, isn't it?




But government regs always make things better. That is why we have soap that does not clean, new washers that suck, and the improved exploding fuel cans (no vent hole.) This is why we have bunny inspectors and cops and cities busting nine year olds selling lemonade. This is why children are suspended for throwing an imaginary grenade at imaginary bad guys. Of course we trust Dear Leader and the Chicago Way.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 11:27:17 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		We already have a national identification system, even if there is a lie printed on the card about how it isn't, and the sytem we have is crappy.

Yes, a national ID is a useful tool for totalitarians. It's also a useful tool for many more beneficial and benign activities, with immigation enforcement right up there on that list.

The creation of a such a system isn't going to give the government a single capability they don't already possess, but it will make the processes involved a hell of a lot more efficient, and cheaper to boot.

Now, if they want to get crazy and creative with the system, say by consolidating all of our financial transactions into a single purpose card, that's going to get my neck hairs standing straight up.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 12:08:01 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

But government regs always make things better. That is why we have soap that does not clean,

What government reg made soap that wont clean?

quote:

new washers that suck,


Which government reg mandated new washers that suck?

quote:

and the improved exploding fuel cans (no vent hole.)


Which government reg mandated no vent hole in gas cans?

quote:

This is why we have bunny inspectors


??????????????????

quote:

and cops and cities busting nine year olds selling lemonade.


I would be reticent to eat anything prepared by a child. They pick their noses and eat boogers and never wash their hands after using the shit house.


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 12:17:31 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

We already have a national identification system, even if there is a lie printed on the card about how it isn't, and the sytem we have is crappy.

Yes, a national ID is a useful tool for totalitarians. It's also a useful tool for many more beneficial and benign activities, with immigation enforcement right up there on that list.

The creation of a such a system isn't going to give the government a single capability they don't already possess, but it will make the processes involved a hell of a lot more efficient, and cheaper to boot.

Now, if they want to get crazy and creative with the system, say by consolidating all of our financial transactions into a single purpose card, that's going to get my neck hairs standing straight up.




Better let "yachtie" know that......

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 1:01:20 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Yes, a national ID is a useful tool for totalitarians. It's also a useful tool for many more beneficial and benign activities, with immigation enforcement right up there on that list.

As someone who doesn't drive (long story) and finds a passport cumbersome to tote around, I think a national ID card could be kind of handy.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 1:04:56 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I caught myself pondering this thread as I was heading to lunch (sigh), and was struck by a bit of a paradox. Our right-leaning posters are often at pains to tell us how government is inefficient, even incompetent. Yet a thread like this one seems to presume that the government would magically become a hyperefficient and tyrannical people-tracking machine.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 2:48:36 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

But government regs always make things better. That is why we have soap that does not clean,

What government reg made soap that wont clean?


In 2010, many states enacted a ban on phosphates in detergent, both laundry and dishwasher, under the guise that the new formulations were better for the environment. They do not clean well. (Of course businesses can still use them because their stuff HAS to be clean.)

quote:

quote:

new washers that suck,


Which government reg mandated new washers that suck?


Federal energy efficiency mandates. The new washers do not clean your clothes well and they smell mildewy.

quote:

quote:

and the improved exploding fuel cans (no vent hole.)


Which government reg mandated no vent hole in gas cans?


from the EPA in 2007: “Starting with containers manufactured in 2009… it is expected that the new cans will be built with a simple and inexpensive permeation barrier and new spouts that close automatically.” They are not permitted to have a separate vent. The top has to close automatically.

quote:

quote:

This is why we have bunny inspectors


??????????????????


The 'bunny inspectors' are part of the FDA. Their job is to ensure that the bunnies used by magicians are from properly licensed bunny farmers.

quote:

quote:

and cops and cities busting nine year olds selling lemonade.


quote:

I would be reticent to eat anything prepared by a child. They pick their noses and eat boogers and never wash their hands after using the shit house.


You do not have children, do you? Because you can teach them differently. And cooking with your children is always encouraged.


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 3:08:49 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

But government regs always make things better. That is why we have soap that does not clean,
What government reg made soap that wont clean?

In 2010, many states enacted a ban on phosphates in detergent, both laundry and dishwasher, under the guise that the new formulations were better for the environment. They do not clean well. (Of course businesses can still use them because their stuff HAS to be clean.)


You have changed your position. Soap and detergent are two different things. Woolite is a soap tide is a detergent. They are made of different things and act differently. in the laundry process. So it obvious that the govt. has made no regs that require soap that wont clean.
As to banning phosphates perhaps a little trip to googleland would be helpful.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 3:11:04 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

quote:

new washers that suck,

Which government reg mandated new washers that suck?

Federal energy efficiency mandates. The new washers do not clean your clothes well and they smell mildewy.


Whle opinions are important to those who hold them I would prefer some sort of validation.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 3:19:21 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

quote:

and the improved exploding fuel cans (no vent hole.)

Which government reg mandated no vent hole in gas cans?

from the EPA in 2007: “Starting with containers manufactured in 2009… it is expected that the new cans will be built with a simple and inexpensive permeation barrier and new spouts that close automatically.” They are not permitted to have a separate vent. The top has to close automatically.


Here is a copy of the epa rules:

The EPA regulations are based on requirements started in Califormia by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in 2000 and updated in 2007. Since 2000, individual states have been slowly following suit, but the new EPA regulations will bring all states in line and by January 1, 2009 all new PFCs produced and sold in the United States will be compliant.The regulations impose: •A single, self venting opening for filling and pouring with no separate vents or openings
•A treated can body for minimal permeation of fuels
•Automatic closure, meaning a nozzle which automatically springs to the closed position when not pouring
•Childproof features as designated by the Children’s Gasoline Burn Prevention Act

http://lawncare.about.com/od/toolsofthetrade/a/PFC_regs.htm

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/12/2013 3:32:58 PM >

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 3:21:44 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:


quote:

quote:

This is why we have bunny inspectors

??????????????????

The 'bunny inspectors' are part of the FDA. Their job is to ensure that the bunnies used by magicians are from properly licensed bunny farmers.



A little validation please?

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/12/2013 3:27:25 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

and cops and cities busting nine year olds selling lemonade.

quote:

I would be reticent to eat anything prepared by a child. They pick their noses and eat boogers and never wash their hands after using the shit house.



quote:

You do not have children, do you? Because you can teach them differently. And cooking with your children is always encouraged.


How do I know that the crumb hustler has been taught anything as I approach that toxic lemon-aid stand

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: It's only paranoia - 5/13/2013 9:24:38 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

Wow, Vincent, [deleted as would violate TOS]

see pages 175 - 178. No distinction is made for documents of US Citizens (which happens to specifically included) from those of, or issued to, foreign nationals. Also note the following, stated at the beginning -

To provide for comprehensive immigration reform and for other purposes.


Now, what the hell do YOU think "other purposes" means?

Wow, Yachtie. Deleted not to violate TOS??? Ewww, scarey.

Attaching an article by David Frum which refutes your paranoia point by point. This entire process refers to setting up a data base for people applying for citizenship. Not for everyone in the nation.

From David Frum at the end of the article:

Update, 8:00 AM: Alex Conant, Sen. Marco Rubio's press secretary, emailed me his thoughts on Wired's assertion:

The legislation does not propose creating a national database of Americans' biometric data, and any suggestion to the contrary is a misreading of the bill. Senator Rubio's goal is to reduce future illegal immigration by creating an effective employment verification system that uses existing public databases, offers alternative ways to establish identity, and establishes an appeals process to protect people's employment rights.

RUMOUR MONGERING

So, No national ID card, No biometric photo tool, Not for all citizens, the Black Helicopters are NOT coming. Chill out. Unbelievable.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/13/2013 9:26:07 AM >

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 20
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