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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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seek to forge public opinion

See I do not believe this is true... I do believe, as I have been saying, that news organizations will present and editorialize the news in away that appeals to their subscribers. It is up to you and I to decide, with the facts at hand, whether we agree. If enough of us don't they will quickly change their editorial direction.

Butch

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Just so long as the facts are presented then public opinion may or may not change and so will follow the media.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Perhaps the United States has no real choice in the matter. Maybe the war is being brought to the US.

On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi published extracts from Saif al-Adel's document "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[65][66] Abdel Bari Atwan summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages to rid the Ummah from all forms of oppression:
1.Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.
2.Incite local resistance to occupying forces.
3.Expand the conflict to neighboring countries, and engage the U.S. and its allies in a long war of attrition.
4.Convert al-Qaeda into an ideology and set of operating principles that can be loosely franchised in other countries without requiring direct command and control, and via these franchises incite attacks against the U.S. and countries allied with the U.S. until they withdraw from the conflict, as happened with the 2004 Madrid train bombings, but which did not have the same effect with the July 7, 2005 London bombings.
5.The U.S. economy will finally collapse by the year 2020 under the strain of multiple engagements in numerous places, making the worldwide economic system which is dependent on the U.S. also collapse leading to global political instability, which in turn leads to a global jihad led by al-Qaeda and a Wahhabi Caliphate will then be installed across the world following the collapse of the U.S. and the rest of the Western world countries.

Atwan also noted, regarding the collapse of the U.S., "If this sounds far-fetched, it is sobering to consider that this virtually describes the downfall of the Soviet Union."[65]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

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But the OP in general, is correct. ALL wars are wars for profit, this one is no different except for the reduction of our constitutional rights. Many think and I agree, this war is not a war on terrorism, it is a war on the constitution. It is the big American Neo-Nazis in their strike-out of laws making their coup in time...perfectly legal.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?

You cannot see the difference between intentionally turning children into instruments of murder and children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations?

So there have been 1,500 odd cases of "children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations ........?" Does that include the dozens of kids deliberately shot to death for (allegedly) daring to throw stones at the IDF? Or the numerous kids deliberately shot for straying too close to the Gaza border while playing?

Not one of these killings has ever seen an IDF soldier charged with negligence let alone murder. If you are prepared to delude yourself that such killings are "tragic byproduct of military operations", then go for it. Not all of us share your fanatical devotion to the Zionist cause and some of us take a more realistic view.

How many dead children will it take before you accept that the IDF is one of the world's worst child abuse institutions? There are 1500 dead children, and thousands more wounded, crippled and/or tortured that say it is.

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I am not sure how you sugar coat strapping a bomb to a child and sending him off to die and take out as many innocents with him as he can. I really don't care how the story is worded. But you are right, they have to try.

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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seek to forge public opinion

See I do not believe this is true...

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I do believe, as I have been saying, that news organizations will present and editorialize the news in away that appeals to their subscribers. It is up to you and I to decide, with the facts at hand, whether we agree.

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If enough of us don't they will quickly change their editorial direction.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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When adults, in command of their own faculties, strap a bomb to themselves and use it to attack an enemy, that at least has the same willingness to sacrifice we see in the non-violent analogues (e.g. the civil rights movement had several people that chose to go to jail as part of their civil disobedience), and it meets the standard of reciprocality (i.e. don't kill unless you're willing to die to do it, as any killing you do should be worth your own life). Not a very effective tactic, but hardly high on the list in terms of being morally questionable (though, granted, that's a pretty long list).

Which begs the question: In their belief system is it a sacrifice of this life or a pathway to a more rewarding life?

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Additionally, what are we to make of self-immolition as a tactic of protest?

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

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Chrisians have the exact same belief system...if I remember from catachism they taught us that a martyr goes directly to heaven non-stop.

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A somewhat more serious level of commitment than a bumper sticker.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

The record will show that the u.s. has made money on every war we have been involved in.

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I do believe, as I have been saying, that news organizations will present and editorialize the news in away that appeals to their subscribers. It is up to you and I to decide, with the facts at hand, whether we agree.

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How is that possible when all the news outlets publish what their readership wants to hear?

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ORIGINAL: DomKen

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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It seems that every time you contribute to a thread about the ME, this atrocity is the only matter you feel rates a mention about a conflict where both sides have long litanies of vicious atrocities to their names.

It can't be that you are outraged by the killing of children as, (to the best of my recollection) you have never mentioned the c1500 Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military since 2000.

I'm hoping that politically inspired selective outrage is the wrong explanation for this. Care to explain why your outrage appears to be so selective?

You cannot see the difference between intentionally turning children into instruments of murder and children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations?

So there have been 1,500 odd cases of "children dying as a tragic byproduct of military operations ........?" Does that include the dozens of kids deliberately shot to death for (allegedly) daring to throw stones at the IDF? Or the numerous kids deliberately shot for straying too close to the Gaza border while playing?

Not one of these killings has ever seen an IDF soldier charged with negligence let alone murder. If you are prepared to delude yourself that such killings are "tragic byproduct of military operations", then go for it. Not all of us share your fanatical devotion to the Zionist cause and some of us take a more realistic view.

How many dead children will it take before you accept that the IDF is one of the world's worst child abuse institutions? There are 1500 dead children, and thousands more wounded, crippled and/or tortured that say it is.

Get over yourself already.

There is a definite difference between young men "throwing stones" (actually that is using very dangerous slingshots in many cases), and a child being used to murder civilians.

Before you deny the facts. Pro hamas blogger with pick of these "children throwing stones"
http://arabwomanprogressivevoice.blogspot.com/2009/01/palestinian-civilians-who-are-not-yet.html

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ken, I think you missed the irony in that blog photo.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Which begs the question: In their belief system is it a sacrifice of this life or a pathway to a more rewarding life?

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Additionally, what are we to make of self-immolition as a tactic of protest?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

The record will show that the u.s. has made money on every war we have been involved in.

We had a national debt equal to our GDP in 1945 I believe.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

The record will show that the u.s. has made money on every war we have been involved in.

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

Perhaps the United States has no real choice in the matter. Maybe the war is being brought to the US.

On March 11, 2005, Al-Quds Al-Arabi published extracts from Saif al-Adel's document "Al Quaeda's Strategy to the Year 2020".[65][66] Abdel Bari Atwan summarizes this strategy as comprising five stages to rid the Ummah from all forms of oppression:
1.Provoke the United States and the West into invading a Muslim country by staging a massive attack or string of attacks on U.S. soil that results in massive civilian casualties.

I think that's where the problem came in. The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

I don't think we should play the victim card here unless we are willing to accept responsibility for putting ourselves in a position to be provoked by having troops and CIA operations all over the globe. Not saying it was done willfully to expand empire . . . but certainly history will judge if we over-reacted to the threat of Communist aggression or if we didn't have sense enough to take our marbles and go home soon enough. Maybe neither was the case. I do recall the drawdown of military strength and the closing of bases during the Clinton administration. Perhaps then it was already too late. The first World Trade Center attack (the truck bombing) occurred in 1993. We were under seige before we could complete our withdrawal, if indeed we were going to withdraw. History confounds us with all the "ifs" don't it?

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

How can we decide "with the facts at hand" if the news is tailored to appeal to preconceived public opinion? A bizarre position, Butch. Sort of "don't confuse me with new facts or opinions."

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Just so long as the facts are presented then public opinion may or may not change and so will follow the media.

A dozen witnesses may view the same crime and come up with a dozen different "facts."

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I don't know that we overreacted to Communist aggression,

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but I think our policy in that area was inconsistent and contradictory. It seemed that our government couldn't make up its mind whether to shit or get off the pot. Containment was a policy that led to many strange bedfellows.

Honestly speaking, I think our current enemies would have respected us more if we just engaged in open warfare and conquest against Communist nations,

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rather than limited wars, wars by proxy, and all that covert bullshit that the CIA became famous for. At least it would be more honest. Rigging elections, staging military coups, puppet governments, and war by proxy just looks so dishonorable, weak, and cowardly. That's how they see us, and that's why they think they can win against us.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
The U.S. was provoked, and we fell for it - hook, line, and sinker. We've always had a choice, and the war has been brought to the U.S. because of the choices we've made. We allow ourselves to be manipulated far too easily. That's been the problem with U.S. foreign policy ever since World War II.

The record will show that the u.s. has made money on every war we have been involved in.

Maybe so, but I never got my cut of the spoils.