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Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 1:01:18 PM   
Yachtie


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Evidently, by first giving an opening statement, Ms. Lerner waived her 5th amendment rights.
Seems appropriate. She made statements in her opening remarks, and any subsequent inquiry by the panel her 5th amendment invocation seeks to quash.
She wanted to have her say, "I have not done anything wrong," and not be accountable as to the veracity of what she said.

She should have kept her mouth shut.

Anyone for



< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/22/2013 1:03:44 PM >


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 1:14:07 PM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, says Issa the convict, a well known legal genius who couldnt find his own ass with two hands and a flashlight.

This is neither a civil or criminal court case, she can tell Issa to shove it up his ass any time she wishes. 

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 1:18:51 PM   
RottenJohnny


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I'm not a law expert but I think that unless you specifically agree to waive your 5th Amendment rights you can invoke them at any time during an interview/interrogation without a court being allowed to assume obstruction.

< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 5/22/2013 1:19:29 PM >


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 1:31:53 PM   
mnottertail


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At the same time, the right against self-incrimination is also narrower than the Fifth Amendment suggests. The Fifth Amendment allows the government to force a person to be a witness against herself or himself when the subject matter of the testimony is not likely to incriminate the person at a future criminal proceeding. Testimony that would be relevant to a civil suit, for example, is not protected by the right against self-incrimination if it does not relate to something that is criminally inculpatory. By the same token, testimony that only subjects a witness to embarrassment, disgrace, or opprobrium is not protected by the Fifth Amendment.

So . . .



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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 2:22:53 PM   
DomKen


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Since the Speaker of the House has said he intends to send someone to jail, no lawyer in his right mind would let his client say anything in front of the House.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 2:23:15 PM   
Powergamz1


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Issa is full of it. The statement that waives your rights is 'I hereby waive my rights'.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 4:49:44 PM   
Owner59


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As interesting as when issa leaked the location of our CIA assets in Libya?


Prolly not....

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 6:56:08 PM   
muhly22222


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Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 8:00:50 PM   
Powergamz1


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Congress is not a trier of fact within the judicial branch, so the rules are not all the same.

She was offering testimony in the same sense that saying 'I am an atheist' is praising God.

And it isn't all or nothing, refusing to answer questions today does not strip her of her rights under the 5th as an American citizen tomorrow or the next day.

She is free to invoke the 5th. it can't be waived for her by a star chamber.

quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 5/22/2013 8:05:31 PM >


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 8:35:13 PM   
TheHeretic


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The problems don't kick in until after you have invoked the right to remain silent, and then don't.

Of course, displaying that sort of contempt for the people the Obama administration was elected to serve only deepens the perception that they think themselves above the law.

Might get interesting, indeed.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 9:37:42 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Might get interesting...

As in the Chinese curse, I suspect.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 11:04:52 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

At the same time, the right against self-incrimination is also narrower than the Fifth Amendment suggests. The Fifth Amendment allows the government to force a person to be a witness against herself or himself when the subject matter of the testimony is not likely to incriminate the person at a future criminal proceeding. Testimony that would be relevant to a civil suit, for example, is not protected by the right against self-incrimination if it does not relate to something that is criminally inculpatory. By the same token, testimony that only subjects a witness to embarrassment, disgrace, or opprobrium is not protected by the Fifth Amendment.

So . . .





finally we agree on something, in fact for civil its geared toward self incrimination where silence is considered tacit admission, hence you are forced to speak regardless. it can get s bit tricky.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/22/2013 11:07:10 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Congress is not a trier of fact within the judicial branch, so the rules are not all the same.

She was offering testimony in the same sense that saying 'I am an atheist' is praising God.

And it isn't all or nothing, refusing to answer questions today does not strip her of her rights under the 5th as an American citizen tomorrow or the next day.

She is free to invoke the 5th. it can't be waived for her by a star chamber.

quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.





this sounds juicy I am going to have to read the op link :)

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 6:57:18 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.


Isn't it pretty much the same with grand juries? If a person called to testify before a grand jury answers any questions beyond "What is your name?" that it means they've waived their fifth amendment rights?

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 7:22:09 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.


I hear you, and know you are a voicebox, so this is learned opinion, but I would ask you if she had been mirandized (*is that the word*) at that point?  If not, we got some ways to go to get a judgement on that, don't we?   I mean she is called as a witness, where she is compelled to take the stand, this is not a trial. This is not judge and jury at this point where outcome could be compromised by selective testimony.  Isn't it in such a case well established that there can be selective invocation?  

Worst circumstance is what?  a year in jail and $1000 fine?  Near elections and a very public court battle?  Think Issa is that stupid?  I mean I know he is an imbecile, but he does have some self preservation awareness, doesn't he?  Big government crushing the rights of the small people and all?  Forget reality, I saw it on the spin zone, on TV, which means it happened.

If it goes to court after that, it is a new question, no?  In which case the 5th will hold will it not?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/23/2013 8:03:26 AM >


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 9:33:41 AM   
muhly22222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

Actually, she did waive her Fifth Amendment rights.

A witness, whether in a court proceeding or in Congressional testimony (they're subpoenaed and sworn, remember) can "take the Fifth" if testifying could subject them to criminal prosecution. However, that right can be waived, and it doesn't have to be done explicitly. Answering any questions beyond simple identifies ("What is your name?" for instance) or giving any testimony waives the Fifth Amendment right as to all questions. So when Ms. Lerner stated that she was innocent, that she had done nothing wrong, she was offering testimony. Because she offered some testimony, she opened herself up to the requirement that she answer any question asked of her. It's all or nothing...either you get to have your say, but have everything you say tested through questioning, or you don't get to say anything.

Think of it like this. Imagine a criminal defendant (I know that's not the situation she's in, but the same rules apply). This defendant is testifying on his own behalf at his trial. He can't take the stand and say "I didn't do it," and then take the Fifth when the prosecutor starts asking him questions to attack his story.


I hear you, and know you are a voicebox, so this is learned opinion, but I would ask you if she had been mirandized (*is that the word*) at that point?  If not, we got some ways to go to get a judgement on that, don't we?   I mean she is called as a witness, where she is compelled to take the stand, this is not a trial. This is not judge and jury at this point where outcome could be compromised by selective testimony.  Isn't it in such a case well established that there can be selective invocation?
  

It's not relevant at all whether she had been "Mirandized," though she almost certainly wasn't. Miranda only covers statements made during custodial interrogations, and while you could argue that she was being interrogated, she wasn't in custody, so Miranda doesn't apply.

It's not a judge-and-jury situation, but the results of the hearing (Congressional action) could still be compromised by selective testimony (in theory, anyway). If Congress is not given the whole story, any reforms they try to make to ensure that something similar doesn't happen again may not be sufficient, or they may be unduly heavy-handed. And I don't know of any situation where selective invocation of the right against compelled self-incrimination is allowed.

quote:


Worst circumstance is what? a year in jail and $1000 fine? Near elections and a very public court battle? Think Issa is that stupid? I mean I know he is an imbecile, but he does have some self preservation awareness, doesn't he? Big government crushing the rights of the small people and all? Forget reality, I saw it on the spin zone, on TV, which means it happened.

If it goes to court after that, it is a new question, no? In which case the 5th will hold will it not?


If that's the worst-case scenario for Ms. Lerner, and Issa knows that she won't be prosecuted even if she takes the full brunt of the blame, he could always grant her immunity. That would take away any danger for self-incrimination, and then she'd be forced to testify.

If there's a prosecution of some sort in the future, her ability to take the Fifth would be at issue there, too. Even assuming that she waived her right to do so in front of Congress, she could take the Fifth in court, although her Congressional testimony could then be introduced against her. If it's somebody else being prosecuted (say, the head of the IRS, if it goes that high), then they could grant her immunity and force her to testify.


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 10:03:31 AM   
mnottertail


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Muhly2(to infinity);

And I hear you, and still say that while as a lawyer, and a damn fine speaker, you raise good points, but this is the opinion of several cases on a waiver explicit and implicit from a D. C Law firm:

1. Most circuits have held that providing discovery in a
civil or administrative proceeding, or giving testimony
in an earlier trial or before a grand jury usually will
not be found to constitute a waiver of the Fifth
Amendment privilege in subsequent proceedings.

a. A waiver of the Fifth Amendment privilege is
limited to the same proceeding in which the
witness testifies. See, e.g., United States v. Gary,
74 F.3d 304, 312 (1st Cir. 1996) (defense witness
who testified at first criminal trial retains valid
Fifth Amendment privilege not to testify at retrial
of same case); United States v. Cain, 544 F.2d
1113, 1117 (1st Cir. 1976) (co-defendants’
submission to deposition in unrelated criminal
proceeding not waiver of Fifth Amendment in
proceeding in which co-defendant was called as
witness); United States v. Licavoli, 604 F.2d 613,
623 (9th Cir. 1979).

b. The D.C. Circuit and the Eighth Circuit reflect the
minority view. See Ellis v. United States, 416
F.2d 791, 801 (D.C. Cir. 1969) (holding that
witness’s testimony before grand jury waived his
right to assert privilege at the subsequent trial);8
Walker v. Lockhart, 763 F.2d 942, 951-52 (8th
Cir. 1985) (holding that defendant waived Fifth
Amendment right against self-incrimination during
habeas corpus hearing).

2. Even within the same proceeding, a witness waives
the privilege only with respect to details directly
related to the topic on which he has voluntarily
testified. See Rogers v. United States, 340 U.S. 367,
373 (1951).

a. The majority of courts follow the "further
incrimination" test: where the witness might risk
further incrimination based on his additional
testimony, a waiver will not be found. See, e.g., In
re Master Key Litig., 507 F.2d 292, 294 (9th Cir.
1974); In re Seper, 705 F.2d 1499, 1501 (9th Cir.
1983); In re Folding Carton Antitrust Litig., 609
F.2d 867, 873 (7th Cir. 1979); United States v.
LaRiche, 549 F.2d 1088, 1096 (6th Cir. 1977);
United States v. Cox, 836 F. Supp. 1189, 1201 (D.
Md. 1993).
b. A minority of circuits, including the Second
Circuit, follow the “distortion test”: if further
testimony is necessary to avoid “distortion” of
evidence already in the record, and the witness
knew of his Fifth Amendment rights at the time he
gave the testimony, then the privilege has been
waived. See Klein v. Harris, 667 F.2d 274, 287-88
(2d Cir. 1981); United States v. Singer, 785 F.2d
228, 241 (8th Cir. 1986); E.F. Hutton & Co. v.
Jupiter Dev. Corp., 91 F.R.D. 110, 116-17
(S.D.N.Y. 1981); Uni Supply, Inc. v. Gov’t of
Israel, No. 92 Civ. 1489, 1993 WL 6204, at *2
(S.D.N.Y. Jan. 4, 1993).



can only say that such a learned opinion seems, at the best,  arguable.   LOL.    But it is always great talking with you esquire. I learn alot.  Hope I never need it.

I think that you are correct that in reality, the only way for compelling testimony will be immunity. 


Further, your affiant sayeth not.  (I'm taking the 5th.) 

(meh, the paras didnt hold and one was missing, fixed)  (this is not an implied waiver muhly, you'll never take me alive.)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 5/23/2013 10:09:41 AM >


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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 12:31:28 PM   
subrob1967


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FR

You guys do know she's not covered by Miranda right?

Might want to look up Garrity & Kalkines warnings.

quote:

A typical Kalkines warning (exact wording varies between federal investigative agencies) may read as follows:
You are being questioned as part of an internal and/or administrative investigation. You will be asked a number of specific questions concerning your official duties, and you must answer these questions to the best of your ability. Failure to answer completely and truthfully may result in disciplinary action, including dismissal. Your answers and any information derived from them may be used against you in administrative proceedings. However, neither your answers nor any information derived from them may be used against you in criminal proceedings, except if you knowingly and willfully make false statements.
The Kalkines warning helps to ensure an employee's Constitutional rights, while also helping federal agents effectively conduct internal and administrative investigations.


Link

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 12:54:50 PM   
mnottertail


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Yes, we are aware, I simply did not know the name for the government warning thingie.
thats why i did those stars.

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RE: Might get interesting... - 5/23/2013 12:58:16 PM   
muhly22222


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I'll freely admit that it's a close case, since I'm not an advocate (officially, anyway) for either side.

What will be interesting to me is what happens once/if Congress holds her in contempt, assuming that she decides to take that risk and not testify. From a tactical point of view, I would go ahead and take the chance...the worst that happens if you refuse while arguing that you invoked is that a court comes back and says that you did indeed waive your privilege, in which case you can just testify and avoid jail time.

Or she may be willing to spend time in jail to protect a higher-up, in which case even a grant of immunity wouldn't help, although it does play a lot more like a cover-up in that instance.

On an unrelated note, I'm really enjoying this story (the Lois Lerner one, separate from the IRS story). The Self-Incrimination Clause is my favorite provision of the Bill of Rights (I even did a project in law school based on a self-incrimination issue), and to see it get so much play and debated so much is tremendously interesting. Fuck, I'm such a nerd.

_____________________________

I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking.
-Woodrow Wilson

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