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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That was in retort to the belief that is a woman doesnt know she is pregnant by her 20th week, she is stupid.

I dont agree with men having to pay child support for a baby that isnt theirs.

I also think its bullshit that a man who has spent years raising a child suddenly stops caring for that child because he finds out its not his "blood" child. Which simply goes back to the fact that a sperm donor is a more appropriate term for some men.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Legal definition of a fetus....

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A fetus is typically defined as a developing human at a certain point after conception to birth.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fetus/

Many states use the terms "unborn child" or "fetus/embryo".

Viability has always followed medical application, including the Supreme Court.

They prefer criminalizing an assault on a pregnant woman and recognizing her as the only victim.
Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk



13 states use fetus...

Wis. Stat. § 940.04 (2) et seq. declare that any person who intentionally destroys the life of an unborn quick child or causes the death of the mother by an act done with intent to destroy the life of an unborn child is guilty of homicide. It is unnecessary to prove that the fetus was alive when the act so causing the mother's death was committed.

Many more use both.... Its well known, to most that is... that a fetus is within the womb... child outside of it. When the "child" is born dead, its a fetal demise... not a dead child. They are given a "fetal death certificate"....

http://www.odh.ohio.gov/vitalstatistics/vitalmisc/fetaldth.aspx

The legal definition of "fetal death" means: "death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception... which after such expulsion or extraction does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles."

So, do go on about how I dont understand the law.

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Not a fair argument taz. The whole point of the pro-choice crowd has been an attempt to control the terms.
They can't be in favor of aborting a baby, so they call it a fetus.

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I have a google redirect virus at the moment so I can't provide links- but if you google laws + baby you can find the term baby was used in laws (prebirth) commonly prior to RvW.

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The whole idea of 'its a fetus one day, and a baby the next' based on an arbitrary date set by the supreme court is quite a logical contortion.

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*IF* you think that people should have the right to abort a baby, there should at least be no mamby-pamby euphemisms. Let people make clear eyed decisions.

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I think if people are going to end another beings life (no matter where in the life cycle they are) they should be required to be educated as to the realities of the situation. Require the person making the decision to see the status of the baby. See that it has hands, and fingers and moves.

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What other major decisions in life are the participants encourage to not review the facts, and in fact laws have been passed to ensure that it isn't required?

I don't (generally) support abortion. Just making my bias known. But as a separate issue, I don't believe that killing a child should ever be a trivial decision, and so I think it behooves us that the prospective mom have a clear eye to what is actually occurring.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Not a fair argument taz. The whole point of the pro-choice crowd has been an attempt to control the terms.
They can't be in favor of aborting a baby, so they call it a fetus.

Not true. Medicine calls it a fetus....

zygote
blastocyst
embryo
fetus

Fetus is actually the 4th stage.

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I have a google redirect virus at the moment so I can't provide links- but if you google laws + baby you can find the term baby was used in laws (prebirth) commonly prior to RvW.

And? RvW decision was partly based upon viability, which requires medical applications.

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The whole idea of 'its a fetus one day, and a baby the next' based on an arbitrary date set by the supreme court is quite a logical contortion.

*IF* you think that people should have the right to abort a baby, there should at least be no mamby-pamby euphemisms. Let people make clear eyed decisions.

PEOPLE dont decide... a woman decides. When a woman goes to the OBGYN, he doesnt speak about her "baby's age", its "gestational age".

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I think if people are going to end another beings life (no matter where in the life cycle they are) they should be required to be educated as to the realities of the situation. Require the person making the decision to see the status of the baby. See that it has hands, and fingers and moves.

So you can feel better about her decision?

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roughly 81% of abortions occur before the fetus develops a human looking face and fingernails. So you want to push... what?

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What other major decisions in life are the participants encourage to not review the facts, and in fact laws have been passed to ensure that it isn't required? .

You are assuming they dont know.

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You are also making the assumption that the level of knowledge they must possess be the one you demand. Yet, you dont take into account the reasons for these abortions, nor do most, not just you, care.

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True. But I have yet to hear a doctor say - concratulations- your having a zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus. Very common for them to say .. 'baby' as well.

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When couples go to IVF - they are not asked if they want a fetus; they are going to have a baby.
It *is* a logical contortion when its a baby when its wanted and a fetus when its not.

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A) you quoted the definition of fetus. The definition of 'baby' (definition #5) is also a human fetus. So the term baby is also linguistically correct.
B). You quoted that many states use the term fetus in their laws. I point out that this is a trend that grew noticeably after RvW. Prior many (most?) used the term baby.
C).. You said it is well known to most.. "that a fetus is within the womb... child outside of it". But again this is a development that is relatively recent. Again, it is perfectly correct to say it is a baby before birth and a baby after birth.

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Last I checked women are people. Are you saying otherwise? Really?

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Don't be needlessly offensive.

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I dont thing euthanasia or abortion should be something undertaken lightly.

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I think it should be something with a three day waiting period to change minds.

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I think you should have all the information needed to make the best decision you can make.

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Personally, I think its a crying shame that we spend money to kill babies and yet spend very little to make it possible for the mother to put the baby up for adoption.

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So how does that change what I said?

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Require the person making the decision to see the status of the baby. See that it has hands, and fingers and moves.

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To say that everyone should be informed is not to say that I assume they don't know. However, just as you have to get pre divorce counseling in many states (required by the state) I don't find it unreasonable to set standards.

For example - do they know what welfare benefits are available to them. Do they know what support groups are available in the area?

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
The whole idea of 'its a fetus one day, and a baby the next' based on an arbitrary date set by the supreme court is quite a logical contortion.

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I also don't think abortion is a decision to be made casually or lightly. (But then I don't believe in casual sex either).

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What other major decisions in life are the participants encourage to not review the facts, and in fact laws have been passed to ensure that it isn't required?

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... I don't believe that killing a child should ever be a trivial decision, and so I think it behooves us that the prospective mom have a clear eye to what is actually occurring.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
The whole point of the pro-choice crowd has been an attempt to control the terms.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
...you quoted the definition of fetus. The definition of 'baby' (definition #5) is also a human fetus. So the term baby is also linguistically correct.