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The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 8:15:42 AM

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quote:

On Tuesday, Berlin-based watchdog Transparency International released its Global Corruption Barometer 2013, a worldwide survey of 114,000 people that analyzes bribery and corruption in 107 countries.

The report found that corruption and bribery are prevalent across both developed and underdeveloped nations: More than 50 percent of respondents in the world said corruption had worsened in recent years, and 27 percent admitted to paying bribes in order to access public services and institutions.

Few respondents see an easy way out of this growing problem. The majority of people don’t believe in their government’s capabilities to fight corruption. Nearly 88 percent think that their leaders are doing a poor job at it, and most blame public institutions as the main corruption sources.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/world-corrupt-worst-offenders/story?id=19629992

http://www.transparency.org/gcb2013

The police are seen as the most corrupt institution in the world, followed by judges, and then civil servants/public officials.

What is the solution? As someone wrote in another thread about government surveillance, "who watches the watchers?"

Is the world too soft on corruption? Is it not punished severely enough? Should we get tougher on it and impose harsher sentences?

I've known some people who think that bribery and corruption are no big deal and that graft and kickbacks are the only way things will ever get done. I've heard it argued that corruption is the oil that keeps the machinery moving and that it's a "necessary evil" in any society. I'm not convinced of that, although I was wondering what others might think about this topic.

RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 8:42:51 AM

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quote:

I've known some people who think that bribery and corruption are no big deal and that graft and kickbacks are the only way things will ever get done. I've heard it argued that corruption is the oil that keeps the machinery moving and that it's a "necessary evil" in any society

Often, in my experience, those who advance such arguments are those who profit from corruption.

The costs of corruption are often not immediately apparent. For example, shoddy construction can take years before the results of corruption surface in structural defects, repairs or maintenance costs. Thus despite the higher eventual costs, these costs can remain hidden from public sight. Those who are soft on corruption can (and do) claim other causes for these costs. They're rarely held to account.

This argument appeals to those with short memories and selective accounting skills.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/11/2013 8:43:58 AM >

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 8:48:10 AM

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Yes, the world is getting more corrupt, and the institutions named are among the worst offenders. The problem is, who will enforce it? The courts and police who are corrupt? The politicians who are corrupt? I feel the cause is the materialistic society we've created. In another thread, regarding tipping, I was going to include "graft" among the normal expenses of a bar or restaurant but I refrained.

I've never worked for a place that hasn't had to pay someone off to keep the doors open, whether it was the local PD, health/building/fire inspectors, or the local criminals. In some parts of the world, bribes are considered part of their normal compensation package. Here in the States, there's hardly a day that goes by without some official getting nicked for taking bribes. And look at a PAC or a lobbyist in DC. That's a legal form of bribery in my eyes.

Sadly, the only way I see it ending is through a violent societal reset, akin to the fall of the Roman Empire. Not just one nation, but all. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the love of money is. When I see a beat cop in a small town like mine living in a 250K house, with a Harley, a Vette, and powerboat in the driveway it always makes me wonder how he could afford all of those nifty toys on a 45K salary. At some point though, the system won't be able to absorb all the graft and corruption, and like any organism with an infection, it will sicken and die if not treated properly.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 9:37:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt...

I'm dubious that it actually is in practice. It's more likely that we're becoming more aware of and better informed about all that corruption what's going on. It's like kiddiefiddlers: they weren't unknown before the '60s, it's just that everybody else is now a lot more aware that the cunts are out there.

I'm enough of a cynic to suspect that this could even turn out to be a good thing, if I'm honest.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 9:44:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt...

I'm dubious that it actually is in practice. It's more likely that we're becoming more aware of and better informed about all that corruption what's going on. It's like kiddiefiddlers: they weren't unknown before the '60s, it's just that everybody else is now a lot more aware that the cunts are out there.

I'm enough of a cynic to suspect that this could even turn out to be a good thing, if I'm honest.

Love that "kiddiefiddlers" Thank you for that.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 9:46:39 AM

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quote:

Often, in my experience, those who advance such arguments are those who profit from corruption.

I can't recall ever benefitting from corruption so I rest easy in my mind, Diogenes, when I say the corrupt, like the poor, will always be with us.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 4:28:56 PM

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You'll certainly never eliminate corruption from society entirely but I do believe you might be able to limit it's intrusion into our lives if you lynched a few wall street tycoons, politicians, and corporate CEOs when their corruption damages all of us.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/11/2013 10:39:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt, and the institutions named are among the worst offenders. The problem is, who will enforce it? The courts and police who are corrupt? The politicians who are corrupt? I feel the cause is the materialistic society we've created. In another thread, regarding tipping, I was going to include "graft" among the normal expenses of a bar or restaurant but I refrained.

I've never worked for a place that hasn't had to pay someone off to keep the doors open, whether it was the local PD, health/building/fire inspectors, or the local criminals. In some parts of the world, bribes are considered part of their normal compensation package. Here in the States, there's hardly a day that goes by without some official getting nicked for taking bribes. And look at a PAC or a lobbyist in DC. That's a legal form of bribery in my eyes.

Sadly, the only way I see it ending is through a violent societal reset, akin to the fall of the Roman Empire. Not just one nation, but all. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the love of money is. When I see a beat cop in a small town like mine living in a 250K house, with a Harley, a Vette, and powerboat in the driveway it always makes me wonder how he could afford all of those nifty toys on a 45K salary. At some point though, the system won't be able to absorb all the graft and corruption, and like any organism with an infection, it will sicken and die if not treated properly.

great post

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 3:52:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I've known some people who think that bribery and corruption are no big deal and that graft and kickbacks are the only way things will ever get done. I've heard it argued that corruption is the oil that keeps the machinery moving and that it's a "necessary evil" in any society

Often, in my experience, those who advance such arguments are those who profit from corruption.

The costs of corruption are often not immediately apparent. For example, shoddy construction can take years before the results of corruption surface in structural defects, repairs or maintenance costs. Thus despite the higher eventual costs, these costs can remain hidden from public sight. Those who are soft on corruption can (and do) claim other causes for these costs. They're rarely held to account.

This argument appeals to those with short memories and selective accounting skills.

I think the argument is used as a variation of the trickle-down theory, since the bribe money supposedly circulates around the economy and benefits us all (well, not really, but that's how the argument usually goes).

But you make a good point about poor construction. Houses built 50-75 years ago seem far more durable and rock solid than those built 20-25 years ago.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 4:37:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt, and the institutions named are among the worst offenders. The problem is, who will enforce it? The courts and police who are corrupt? The politicians who are corrupt? I feel the cause is the materialistic society we've created. In another thread, regarding tipping, I was going to include "graft" among the normal expenses of a bar or restaurant but I refrained.

I can see how it could be viewed that way. I also agree that it's due in part to the materialistic society we've created. Some people might be viewed as "suckers" or "saps" if they don't take bribes when they could have easily done so. Someone who is honest and ethical in their business affairs might be disparagingly referred to as a "boy scout."

quote:

I've never worked for a place that hasn't had to pay someone off to keep the doors open, whether it was the local PD, health/building/fire inspectors, or the local criminals. In some parts of the world, bribes are considered part of their normal compensation package. Here in the States, there's hardly a day that goes by without some official getting nicked for taking bribes. And look at a PAC or a lobbyist in DC. That's a legal form of bribery in my eyes.

Indeed. This is probably the worst form of corruption, since it can operate legally and virtually unchallenged. Sure, all the politicians always talk about how they're going to stand up to special interests, but they never do.

quote:

Sadly, the only way I see it ending is through a violent societal reset, akin to the fall of the Roman Empire. Not just one nation, but all. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the love of money is. When I see a beat cop in a small town like mine living in a 250K house, with a Harley, a Vette, and powerboat in the driveway it always makes me wonder how he could afford all of those nifty toys on a 45K salary. At some point though, the system won't be able to absorb all the graft and corruption, and like any organism with an infection, it will sicken and die if not treated properly.

I often wonder the same thing. I've seen some neighborhoods around Washington DC which are more luxurious than Beverly Hills, and I have to wonder: How can mere civil servants afford such palatial digs? And why aren't they being investigated? Whatever happened to the investigative journalists this country used to have? Have they been bribed, too?

I'd like to think that the problem could be solved without a violent societal reset. I don't know if there's any kind of ideological or systemic fix, since corruption can exist under any ideology or political system. Perhaps more sting operations and a more active approach. Tougher penalties might also be a powerful disincentive. Instead of giving them a few years at a country-club prison, put them in some maximum security facility with the worst offenders. That might make some of them think twice before going down that road.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)

RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 4:53:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Often, in my experience, those who advance such arguments are those who profit from corruption.

I can't recall ever benefitting from corruption so I rest easy in my mind, Diogenes, when I say the corrupt, like the poor, will always be with us.

There are lots of negative things that "will always be with us," such as terrorism, murder, child molestation, but that doesn't mean we have to tolerate it.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 5:15:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt, and the institutions named are among the worst offenders. The problem is, who will enforce it? The courts and police who are corrupt? The politicians who are corrupt? I feel the cause is the materialistic society we've created. In another thread, regarding tipping, I was going to include "graft" among the normal expenses of a bar or restaurant but I refrained.

I've never worked for a place that hasn't had to pay someone off to keep the doors open, whether it was the local PD, health/building/fire inspectors, or the local criminals. In some parts of the world, bribes are considered part of their normal compensation package. Here in the States, there's hardly a day that goes by without some official getting nicked for taking bribes. And look at a PAC or a lobbyist in DC. That's a legal form of bribery in my eyes.

Sadly, the only way I see it ending is through a violent societal reset, akin to the fall of the Roman Empire. Not just one nation, but all. Money isn't the root of all evil, but the love of money is. When I see a beat cop in a small town like mine living in a 250K house, with a Harley, a Vette, and powerboat in the driveway it always makes me wonder how he could afford all of those nifty toys on a 45K salary. At some point though, the system won't be able to absorb all the graft and corruption, and like any organism with an infection, it will sicken and die if not treated properly.

I agree, this is an excellent post. Thumbs up!

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 5:52:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

Yes, the world is getting more corrupt...

I'm dubious that it actually is in practice. It's more likely that we're becoming more aware of and better informed about all that corruption what's going on. It's like kiddiefiddlers: they weren't unknown before the '60s, it's just that everybody else is now a lot more aware that the cunts are out there.

I'm enough of a cynic to suspect that this could even turn out to be a good thing, if I'm honest.

You could be right that we are just more aware of it and better informed than we used to be. But when I try to think of this generationally, my grandparents' generation just seemed less cynical and more ardent believers in "the system" than later generations. Culturally, we seem to have become more jaded over the past 40-50 years.

I'm not sure if there is actually any more corruption nowadays than there used to be. The survey is just based on the respondents' perceptions, since corruption itself is impossible to measure, unless someone actually gets caught. And it's not that easy.

Some corruption may be more localized. Some cities might have a more corrupt reputation than others. I think there are still those who believe that the higher levels of government are supposedly less susceptible to corruption than the state/local level, although that seems to be a false perception. Still, there seems to be a much bigger national shock if someone big gets caught versus some local official who gets caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 5:59:04 AM

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Is it really more corrupt? Probably? Maybe? Could be? Not at all? Yes definitely?

Just as stated above, definitely more corrupt some places then others. Heck might be a place right now that has zero corruption and its so overshadowed by corruption, nobody can see or trust its not corrupt.

I was taught to give people the benefit of the doubt, and it was hard concept for me to accept, be careful who you give that honor too.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 7/12/2013 6:00:47 AM >

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I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 7:56:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
You could be right that we are just more aware of it and better informed than we used to be. But when I try to think of this generationally, my grandparents' generation just seemed less cynical and more ardent believers in "the system" than later generations. Culturally, we seem to have become more jaded over the past 40-50 years.

That's another (and less beneficial) result of being better informed, i suspect.

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RE: The World Is Getting More Corrupt - 7/12/2013 8:40:05 AM

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I'll agree that with the social media available now, corruption is more visible, which makes the question of 'is it more corrupt' more difficult to prove.

In Zonie63's observation of the neighborhoods around DC and heavier time given for convictions, I don't think it'd deter many who are in the 'system'. I can only make my case based on what I know of the corrupt practices here in WNY, Utah, and Wyoming (and to a lesser extent Colorado, Nevada, and Idaho). Many of the offenders are born into the system, the children of the cops, politicians, and union members who make their 'sides' taking payola.

I don't say this lightly: because of the extracurricular activities of a few high-ranking members of a local union here in the late '70s, my family had to rapidly pick up and move many states away. And my dad never stopped looking over his shoulder until the day he died. We suffered, they got houses in Florida, fancy cars and boats, and a never-ending roll of cash.

Proving corruption has been made hard for a reason: the very people who write the laws are often the ones benefiting the most from making it hard to prove. A small-business owner usually doesn't have the resources to weather the fallout from reporting a dishonest inspector or cop. If they don't slip the health inspector a "birthday card", they'll find an orange sticker on their window. Right or wrong, it takes time and money to make that go away, and customers remember things like that.

The same goes for the cops. They'll usually not bother "normal" businesses, because the fallout from that can be disastrous, but bars, clubs, and restaurants that serve alcohol seem to be fair game. Because those businesses have to pay ludicrous amounts for liability insurance, every time there's a reported 911 call, it can factor into their bottom line. But Officer Friendly can help you out, for a small donation to the PBA, as it were...That's how problem bars stay open, and if something really bad happens, the owners know better than to speak up.

I know I've reduced it to smaller terms, but a lot of little drops eventually fills a bucket. And there are cities and neighborhoods were it's more prevalent, and not all cops, politicians, and building inspectors are crooked. But enough are to make life harder for the rest of us in the form of higher prices, taxes, and other costs that arise when the 'rules' aren't enforced properly.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler

(in reply to Moonhead)

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